Ask the Pastors Season 7 Episode 12: "Will we work in heaven?"
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Welcome to Ask the Pastors a segment of the West Hills Podcast where you have the opportunity to ask your questions and receive biblically grounded, pastorally sensitive answers from our pastoral staff. Take two, click take two. My name is Brian. I'm your host, one of the pastors, and I'm joined by our lead pastor Will. Yep. And Pastor Thad. Hey everyone. And a topic for today is based off of two listener questions, Vicky and Maggie, who both wrote in this past Sunday. So thanks for your question. Questions.
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And this was in response to something I said
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In the sermon on Sunday that now we're going to determine today whether it was heresy or not, because I said we were talking about busyness and rest. That was the theme of the sermon, God's rest, a cure for busyness. And I said, let's differentiate between work and busyness. Work is good. God commands us. Colossians 3 23 work hardily as unto the Lord. And specifically where I mentioned it was in Ecclesiastes chapter nine, verse 10, Solomon tells us whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might for There is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheel to which you are going. And I bracketed she and said, you know what? For them the afterlife was she 3000 years ago. For us the afterlife is heaven. Hell. And I said, some people on church aren't going to know what she is anyway, so let's just apply this to today. So there's no work in the afterlife to which you're going. And now I'm on trial trial. Here's the trial. I'm standing trial here before myself and you and Jeremy Lewis to figure out whether or not we had two. Yeah, thank you Maggie and Vicky for catching that. They're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait. You just said there's no work in the afterlife. Is that true? Is that really true? So did I just steal your thunder?
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Well, word for word. Vicky wrote in your sermon, you said there's no work in heaven. Then what do we do? I know some work is pleasurable, especially if we take time to rest and thank the Lord. Then Maggie wrote in, you said, there won't be work in heaven. Is that true? Very much the same. Adam had a job in the garden. So I wonder if we might have jobs in heaven.
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I wonder too. Let's wonder aloud for everyone to hear. Let musings let the musings begin. I do think that that's a good place to start though actually with a degree of, well, not only lightheartedness about something like this, but also mainly humility because, and wondering that word wondering like speculating. Because I do think, again, we're going to talk about the clues that we get in the Bible one way or the other, but I hope that we can at least on the front end all agree that this is not a 100% Thad's already smiling because he disagrees. He
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Knows for
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Sure he thinks that every saved believer has to agree on this issue. But no, I think is it fair to say that this is one that's a little bit up for debate and that is not a slam dunk case, biblically and certainly and more than that, even if it was that there's clarity. So where is this on the clarity scale and then biblically and then there's importance. Where is this on the importance? I would say it's not the lowest on the clarity because scripture does have some things to say, some hints that I think we're going to talk about, but it's not as clear as you need to receive Jesus to be saved the gospel not as clear as the resurrection and certainly not as important as any of those things. It's not even as important as what we would call second tier issues of reform.
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You can't go to church with someone who
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Holds a different opinion like your view on baptism or reform theology or even probably, I mean this is a subset of you were joking about in times, but this is a subset of kind of eschatology type of stuff too, where it's like you have your view of how it's all going to parse out. And this is a very small set within your view of how it all parses out. What are we doing in heaven or is there work specifically in heaven?
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And that's also part of my laughing
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Is
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I can picture a scenario where people getting really
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John MacArthur
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Upset about differing opinions on something that we don't have complete and
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Well, I'm sure, yeah, I joke, but God rest, salt the leg great. Sometimes not so great. John MacArthur, everything was a first here issue, probably would've said, yeah, if you don't agree with me on this, you can't go to hell, no work for you now in hell. You don't agree on this. It's like get over it. So I think this is not one of those. There are those issues. This is not even close to one of those, right? Fair to say. Okay. So with that mind we let the trial and let the lighthearted maybe disagreement begin. Are we going to disagree? You want to go first and we'll find out. Maybe we should show prep
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For context are fad did teach a class on, what was it? Heaven. Heaven word. Heaven
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Word. So Brian called him the expert.
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Resident expert. He's the expert. One expert on heaven, experts.
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He's the expert on heaven.
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He did teach a class on it. I'm not saying he's more qualified.
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Have you been caught up to the third heaven knowledge and a vision? Have you seen visions of people working or not working that you can personally attest to? I wish
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Not to brag on these things to cause others
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To stumble.
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No. Why don't you start?
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Okay. And then you'll clear up the, and then any clarity needed. I will. I see what you did there that I was on debate team in high school. I know it's an advantage to go say. All right. Okay, so this is all assumed we actually have not talked about, so I don't know what you're going to say, but Oh, I did. Okay, so going back just real quick to the humility thing. So full disclosure, I read two articles to prep for this, okay, probably my favorite two sources for just very concise, get to the point, poignant straight biblical.
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What should we believe here? And I mention 'em all the time. Got questions.org, I think it's 99% agreement for me on stuff. And then ask Pastor John desiring God, John Piper, and here's what I'll say, I'll put my cards on the table from the start. They both answer the question affirmatively, will there be working heaven? They both say yes, I think so. But they both say we think so and they both are careful to say humility. Christians can disagree on this, but here's the evidence. My card's on the table, I'm still not convinced. I'm not convinced. And so they've got between the two of 'em, like six arguments that I want to walk through to help make the argument for why biblically, why some hints that maybe there is work in heaven and why none of those six passages or arguments are convincing for me.
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But again, before even getting to any of that pipe, I do like that Piper says in his cautions in the Bible that remind us that the glories of the age to come are going to be beyond our present comprehension and imagination. In two Corinthians 12, four, Paul says that he saw things in heaven that no man can utter. That's the Paul who was caught up into the third heaven and got this vision of things that no man can utter, can't be expressed in mortal words. In second Corinthians two verse nine, Paul says, God has prepared things for those who love him that are beyond human comprehension imagination. So again, just I think that helps us once more to just, and same thing with John and Revelation just entering into all this with a high degree of humility. Now that's it.
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Go ahead. I'll add just one more thing also to hyper fixate on this or any other part, is to really miss the entire point of thinking about heaven.
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Oh, the work part you're saying
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The work part or the singing or the streets of gold or that is to really hyper fixate on not what is actually most important about thinking of heaven, which is about being fully in the presence of God. And so just to also say, we can go down rabbit holes and we can have our own theological trenches that we find ourselves in, but it misses the point if you get away from that, the story of scripture is God seeking to dwell with his people.
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I like that. Good well said. Jokes aside on the expert on heaven, the Randy Alcorn real. Yeah, the real expert on heaven is Randy Alcorn and he thinks there's work in heaven. So I've got my work cut out here for me because everybody, so you did the heaven, it was heaven word. And weren't y'all mainly using Matt McCullough's new book?
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Remember heaven.
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And so Matt McCullough was my teaching assistant at Vanderbilt, and so I should,
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And he disagrees with you.
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I should try calling him right now. I haven't read the book yet, but I've got him in my phone so I should call him right now in live time and say, see if he wouldn't answer, he'd be like, anyway. But I could ask him. He spent years researching heaven, I guess. So you want me to make the case and then tell you why? Okay. He wants me to go. So here's why I'm not convinced the folks that say yes, there's going to be a work in heaven, six, six and maybe there's more that you came across or thought of that aren't here. Tha Revelation 22 verse three is the first thing that maybe is depending on how you want to translate, translate could be even most direct or explicit convincing. Revelation 22, verse three says, no longer will there. This is the last chapter of the Bible.
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So yeah, maybe in this conversation I don't know how much it's helpful either Thad to differentiate between new heavens and new earth. Revelation 22 versus heaven as the intermediary state where souls of believers go after dying until the Lord returns. Do we need to differentiate between those two? Because it's possible that I get hit by a truck on the way home, my soul goes to heaven and I don't work there. But then when Christ returns and recreates the new heavens and the new earth, there's work to be done. And so then we're going to work with him there. That's possible, I guess. So those are two different, what are we talking about when we talk about heaven? Are we talking new heavens? Are we talking current intermediary heaven?
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I would primarily argue for the new heaven new earth conversation.
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I don't know if my opinion changes either which way? I don't know. I don't know. So let's just figure it out. Revelation 22, verse three is clearly now talking about new heaven's, new earth. The angel tells John no longer will there be anything cursed, but the throne of God and of the lamb will be in it. And his servants will ESV says, will worship him interestingly. Got questions.org, which almost always uses the ESV translation unless it needs to suit their fancy on something they translated it as and his servants will serve him.
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And the Greek word there, la trio can mean either worship or serve. And so they translate, his servants will serve him. In other words, to kind of beef up the case for, okay, well in the new heavens and new earth, we're going to be his servant who will serve him. Serve has that connotation of work as opposed to his servants will worship him. So again, there's some slippery stuff going on there. Anytime you have to use a different translation of the Bible selectively like that, I see what you did. Alright, so that's why if it was an unequivocal Greek word that meant serve, that's a pretty strong case,
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Which there is a
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Greek word for that. Yeah, yeah. The word from which we get deacon, right or Doos like your yeah, the Doos word for servant. So either way but doesn't use that word. So I am not convinced by the Revelation 22 verse three second argument, and I'm not necessarily going in order of strength here or anything or any particular order. Second argument work predated the fall. So got questions, points out from the beginning. God intended work to be part of the human experience work was his design even before the fall. And quote for you, Genesis two, and God created Adam, put 'em in the garden to work it, to tend it, to cultivate it, to do all this work and dah, dah, dah. Here's why that again, it's just not, when they say from the beginning, God intended work to be part of the human experience. I say that seems like an overstatement. It seems to me like all you can really say is God intended work to be part of the human experience in this earth and this life. So again, if we're going to have the new heavens and new earth conversation, I don't know that you can map from the first heavens and first earth in the way that
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That argument is trying to draw that straight line between creation, good work, predate in the fall. So it therefore work good. Yeah. Yeah. I am with you on all that. And again, human. So again, I'm not saying that there's not, again some evidence there or an argument to be made. I'm just saying I don't know that it's a dotted line to me, not a straight one. It doesn't put me over the top convinced. And so maybe this, some who say yes there's work in heaven would say, well yeah, but it's a cumulative case, cumulative case of all six of these arguments together. So that's number two, work predates the fall. Number three, God works got questions.org. Another reason we believe that we will work in heaven is that God describes himself as a worker when asked by the Pharisees why Jesus was violating the Sabbath in their opinion, Jesus replied, my father is always at work to this very day and I too am working John five 17, the idea that God's children would work in heaven then should come as no surprise since the Lord himself works and we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.
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That's one John three,
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Two.
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So they're saying they're taking one John three, two, when we're glorified in heaven, no more in these sinful mortal states, but we are glorified sanctified, perfectly glorified. We shall be like him. We shall see him as he is. And then they're saying, okay, what does it mean to be like God? Well, amongst other things than it means to be like God. It means it must mean to work all the time because God is always working. John five 17, here's my problem with that. Him doesn't mean the same as him and even here and now there's a sense in which we are called to be like him. I mean the Bible uses the adjective godly all the time and grow in godliness. And we talk in the church about the communicable attributes of God, the ways in which who God is and things about God that communicate or that are available and that we ought to the ways in which God is one way and we should be like him in that way.
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And then we talk about the incommunicable attributes of God, like his omnipresence. He can be everywhere at once. Well no matter how godly we're going to be, we're not going to be omnipresent. So just let that ship sail. So again, and there's certain ways in which we are for sure, like one John three, two says, there's certain ways in which when we are with him and glorified together with him in heaven, there's certain ways of course we're going to be like him Kim in holiness and in free from sin and the way that he is free from sin, all that. But we're still not going to be God. And for
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Well, that's an important distinction to make
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Because
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There are some, yeah,
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Mormons think we're all going to be gods, we turn into God when we die and go to heaven or whatever. And so that's not us. We don't believe that. So like I say that to say just because one of God's attributes and one of the things that's true about God is that he's always working. I just think we need to be careful about saying just because that's true of God, that when we're like him that we're also going to be like that. Because I think we'd have to really sit down and parse through in what ways are we going to be like God and in what ways are we not going to be like God that he's still God and we're still not even when we're glorified. So again, not a slam note case for me. Number four, angels work. So got questions. Believers will have jobs in heaven just as the angels have special jobs that they carry out in worship and adoration angels are servants who do God's bidding. The angel who spoke to John in Revelation 22 called himself a fellow servant with you. There are no unemployed angels in heaven and there will be no unemployed saints. Oh, they have a hyperlink for that phrase. No unemployed angels. I should have read that because now I'm curious. Apparently they maybe have a hyperlink to a whole nother article on unemployed angels. That would be a fun
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One. Join us next week.
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Alright, join us next week for Are there unemployed angels
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On that net though, when we, just to clarify, just as we do not become God when we pass from this world, we do not become angels facts when we pass from this life to the next,
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You mean we don't get wings in a heart and turn into fat babies? Nope. Diapers. Bummer.
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There are other religions who would also ascribe it. I think popular culture would say if they believe in some sort of afterlife would say, well, yeah,
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Think angels like the state of the church and how just not biblically literate and wrong or self-identifying even I think if you asked 10 self-identifying check on a box, I'm an evangelical Christian. If you asked them, do we turn into angels when we die? I bet at least five of 'em would say yes. Don't you think? Not at West Hills. I sadly, sadly. I think five or more probably would or more. Yeah, I bet it's the majority that are like, yeah, I mean, right. Isn't that right? We get our wings in our,
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But we don't. So thank you. Yeah, good qualification there. But again, tracing this line between we're going to, so to your point that that's where I are, we going to be like angels. We're going to, again, one John three, two said, we're going to be like God, we're going to be like him when we see him when we're there. I don't know that there's any passage in scripture that says we're going to be like angels. I mean Hebrews talks about how angels, where is angels long to look into things that we see. That's Ephesians, I think. But Hebrews is like we all, that's a little bit of a weird connection to make to me that believers will have jobs in heaven because angels have jobs in heaven and we're like them now. And again, the connection point that he, whoever for writing forgot questions org makes his revelation 22 9, where the angel spoke to John calling himself a fellow servant with you.
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That to me is a problematic, the fact that you're using that as your connection, go read Revelation 22. The context there is not certainly anything to do with work in heaven. The context there is this angel is so glorious that John starts to almost bow down to worship him. And the angel has to stop him and say, whoa, whoa. What are you doing? Don't worship me. He says, I'm a fellow servant with you, worship God. So I mean, yes, there is a sense in which the angel is making a personal connection, I guess with John and saying, Hey, we're on the same playing field here. But he doesn't. I think it's a stretch to push it and say that that's like fellow servant with means we're John is a fellow. He's a servant again, a worker, A servant. When that angel says that in the year 80, 90, whatever to John, because John was still here on this earth at that point, I mean he was kind of caught up in the vision, but he's on the island of Patmos.
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He's still a fellow servant, a worker at that point. But the angel doesn't say, don't worship me. I'm a fellow servant like you are and will be for the rest of eternity. So I just don't, I think there's a problem with, I don't see that one personally. So number five is John Piper. Now switch. That was all got questions. Now I'm switching it over to ask Pastor John I prophecies of the new creation include work. Piper quotes Isaiah 65 verses 17 through 25, describing the new heavens and new earth to include work verses 21 through 23 in particular, they shall build houses and inhabit them. They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. My chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain or beard children for calamity. Now pause Isaiah here toward the very end of Isaiah, lots and lots of context, lots and lots of stuff prophetically and Isaiah about how terrible y'all have been.
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And now you're going to get God's judgment. You're going to go away into exile. Now Isaiah's getting to the part where he is saying, but it's not going to last forever and God's going to restore you and he's going to make it all okay. And he still loves you and this is the end where he's getting to that. But before I can even make the counter argument on this one, Piper himself points out here's what he says. Now the reason I say this is only a pointer to work in heaven, not a decisive statement, even though it may look like that, I don't think it does at all about work in the final state, is that there is serious disagreement about whether this passage in Isaiah 65 is a description of our final state because it speaks of bearing children. And Jesus says that in the final state there will be no marriage and thus presumably no bearing of children.
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And in the age to come, we're not going to experience death. And yet if we had backed up and read verse 20 of Isaiah 65 right before Piper conveniently starts his quote, but I'm glad he does point this out. Of course he's not trying to, he says, in yet Isaiah 65 20 says, the young man shall die a hundred years old in the new creation. And so in the age to come in the new heavens and new earth, revelation 21, there's no mourning, there's no more tears, there's no more death. And yet here Isaiah 65, whatever this prophecy is pointing to, it's saying, oh, no longer will the young man, the young man will live to a hundred, that'll be your young people will be dying at a hundred. So it's like, well, he's still dying. And then Piper says, we know there is no death in the age to come.
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So the disagreement is whether these kinds of statements here in Isaiah 65 are somehow metaphorical for the eternal life in the age to come. And then Piper says, I've never been able to understand how death is a symbol for life or whether this is a description of a millennial period after the second coming, which is much higher in its blessing than now, but not yet the final state of the new heavens and new earth. And that would be my view. So because he's a historical pre millennialist. So anyway, not to get onto that whole conversation about your view of the eschaton. So let's hold off on that.
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And again, not to get off sidetracked on a whole other interpretation of what does Isaiah 65 mean and what is it talking about? But just suffice it to say for me that one just I don't even know that. Yeah, whatever Isaiah is talking about in his prophecy about building houses and planting vineyards and enjoying the work of their hands and not laboring in vain, I don't know. I guess there's a pointing, I guess there's a pointing because he's talking about work. He's talking about good work again and work not being futile again, it won't be in vain. It'll be like Adam's work in the garden when it was good in Genesis two. But again, I don't know that it's heaven, I don't know. And again, maybe this is where, oh, maybe it is in the millennium versus after the millennium or maybe it's heaven, intermediate state versus new heaven's and new earth. I don't know. But maybe we'd have to kind of come to a decision on that to answer Maggie and Vicky's question here, last one. And honestly maybe the one that came the closest when I first read it, I was like, oh shoot, maybe I do, maybe there I do have to work. Maybe I got to work
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A retraction.
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Yeah. Is Piper's the last point? Piper says parables point toward future responsibility. So maybe you had this one in your notes, dad, Luke 1917, the parable that describes how Jesus settles accounts with his servants at the second coming suggests that now that Jesus has come, they will have work given to them to do. In Luke 1917, the master says, well done, good and faithful servant because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over 10 cities. So this is the parable of the 10 minus and three servants, 10 and five and one. And then the one says, oh, I buried it in the ground. I knew you're a hard master and I didn't want to upset you and lose your one. So here it is, you're one thing. And Jesus says, what are you doing? You should have turned it into two, these other servants that I left minus with and they doubled their return on investment. Why didn't you do that? And that's a very gracious, I mean the master is much harder with them, go to hell.
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But anyway, the point with this discussion is Piper points out now whether that's parabolic or metaphorical, it may well point to the fact that we will be given responsibility in the age to come. This one might actually come. Yeah, sorry. So that I'll stop there. And I guess like I said, that one really had me thinking. But if you read the whole context again, first of all it's a parable. So take that for it is a parable. It is intentionally symbolic and not meant to be taken literally, obviously. But also even in the parable itself, Jesus himself kind of shifts the metaphor and kind of mixes metaphors because with the first guy who turned five minus into 10 minus, he says in verse 17, because you've been faithful and a little, you're going to have authority over 10 cities. But then later with the others, he says he doesn't talk about the authority over cities.
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He shifts it and he says, okay, now you get to keep the money. And same thing like he says, because you were faithless with the one that I gave you. Take his one coin and give it to the guy who has 10. And he says, and those who get the return on investment, you're going to get even more. So he shifts the metaphor away from the authority over cities, which feels like work and shifts it to getting more money, which feels more like heavenly rewards, jewels in the crown, something like that. So again, I think to me that points to the fact that it's a metaphor. I just wouldn't want to make too much of a case out of a parable about getting authority over cities.
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For all those reasons, I am still not convinced. And maybe if you, I'll shut up and ask you. And then I actually have three scriptures that I'll wait for now, but I have three scriptures that it's not just because I'm lazy and I don't want to work in heaven. The reason that I think that probably at this point we won't work in heaven is because of three scriptures that I'll mention in a minute. But while we're on the yes case, do you want to add anything? Do you believe the yes case you need to go on record now is
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I have two words for you. Audio adrenaline.
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Hold on, I'm basing, hold on. You're basing your whole theology of working in, hold on, I need to go to my nineties.
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1993.
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93. What out that It's a big, big house. Lots. Lots of big big house. Big big yard lots where we can play football. Football. What do they say? I don't know if it's a big old house. What are verses do we work? What do they say? Are we going to word the verse? So here at a, this is before you. Do you know this song?
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I know the song everyone.
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He's not born. I think they're still singing. They still play
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This. I listen to this all the time. All the time with my kids. I'm teaching them theology big. No, but I do think there is some nuance that if I could ask one rebuttal question, my answer to would be a stronger yes cases like Piper, perhaps. I don't think there's such strong evidence that I would make a case to separate from someone over it. Although I do hold to a more stronger case of there being a type of work in heaven. So one follow up, can I ask what you think we will be doing in heaven?
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Just as soon as I think
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After you look at the lyrics?
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Yeah, exactly. I think we're going to be playing football in a big yard. I think we're going to be eating a lot of food around a big table. So where are your lyrics in here? Hold on. There's rooms for everyone. We can play land. Lots of land we can play and run. I don't hear anything about work here. Ted, if you need love, you got a family, why not Come with
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Me. I don't see the word. My next question, we'll get there.
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Okay,
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What do you think we will be doing in heaven
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Worshiping? I think that's rib revelation 22, 3. Wait, back to my notes. Revelation 22, 3. No longer will there be anything, a curse, but the throne of God and of the lamb will be in it and his servants will worship him. Again. You could translate the word serve, but how do you serve God? I mean you, we serve God in a way. How will we serve in a way serve? But I mean Paul said he's not served by human hands. So I think the better translation to worship, we will worship him. So yeah, we were joking earlier about I made a crack at you is like if we're singing all day long, yeah, singing for some people is work. And then I told you, you might have to work a little more.
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I'm going to be redeemed. I'm going to have that glorious new body and Brian's getting replaced. I'm going to lead.
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Yeah, I think your exact words were, I'm leading the worship in heaven and I said, you better be careful. Do you remember what happened to the last worship leader in heaven, Satan? Just
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To clarify
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For everyone, we need another podcast episode on that, but it won't be as much worship. No, not your quality of worship. But worship comes more naturally to some folks here. Musical ability, not the musical. And again, all of life is worship. So I think someone who says we're working would say, well yeah, we're worshiping, but we're supposed to worship all the time here. Worship is not just singing. We all believe that. We've all said that. It's a little, maybe we should change your job title. We're all pastors of worship. You're just the pastor of musical worship, Brian, pastor of Connectional and youth worship and everything else you do and operational worship and pastor of preaching worship. So we all believe that. So I get that just because I'm saying we're going to worship, that doesn't exclude work. Work should be worship here on earth too. What do I think? Yeah, but that said, and we're going to sit around the table, there's going to be a heavenly, we're
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Feas.
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I mean jokes aside with audio adrenaline though, that's revelation. I mean that's biblical is the marriage supper of the lamb. So we're going to eat and I think we're going to sing. I mean
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I don't think anyone disagrees with the singing and the eating.
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I hope, I don't know. There are people that really don't like singing that
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Relat
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And certainly people that are like, well, that's going to be won.
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Be in heaven.
(00:37:32):
That's going to be boring. And it's like,
(00:37:36):
Again, that's also
(00:37:37):
Missing the
(00:37:37):
Point. You're missing the
(00:37:39):
Point of it. Yeah. Yeah. How could you, not you, that individual, that person. Yeah. How could you be? So anyway, so yeah, I get your question and I cannot exclude work simply on the basis of, well anyway, go ahead.
(00:38:02):
So I would say at a minimum we can agree on all of that. And if we want to define worshiping God only in that sense, we could say yes, there is work in that sense. Again, I would make the case and I will briefly of why I think it's a bit more than just feasting and praising. Although if that's all it was, I'm not disappointed at all in that to kind of go back through your arguments to give those six points and give a little bit. And
(00:38:46):
Lemme just quickly say too, if we end up working, I'm not disappointed either. I think, I mean I was going to end with that, but while we're on the topic and you just said it, it's like heaven's not going to be a disappointment to anyone who makes it there. If there's work, it'll be perfect work. If there's not, which
(00:39:06):
Is so hard to even fathom. You hate your job that much here,
(00:39:11):
That there are parts of my job, there are days and then I'm like, oh man, there are days. This is it. So again, to work quickly back through, and I caveated this at the beginning, I would say all of these perhaps that if I'm giving what is my best guess at this present moment in my understanding of scripture and thinking about heaven, which are things that we cannot fully comprehend or understand, I am a will, the rework in heaven, yeses, perhaps. Perhaps you start with humans were created to work before sin entered the world. I think we all agree that work existed before there was a fall part of God's original good design, that God put man in the garden to work it to keep it. I would make the case that work is part of imaging, God, that Eden included vocation of stewardship and cultivation and creativity, that it was very good before sin. And to again, you did a dotted line to trace that Nancy Guthrie's got this book even better than Eden, where she traces a biblical theology about how heaven this new heaven, new earth is a better version that we could consider Eden not as perfection but of potential.
(00:40:43):
I don't know that it could be perfection because a lot of people do. Lot people think so. Yeah, a lot of people think Eden was, and we say that Eden, everything was not just good in the beginning. Perfect. And the Bible doesn't necessarily use the word, it doesn't use the word. It says God saw that it was good, not perfect, but also I don't know if there's a Hebrew word for perfect. That's a fun, I have to look it up. I mean blameless anyway or faultless. But I don't know that it could be perfect because again, define perfect because to me, part of what makes it perfect, it can't be improved. And maybe we have to, before we even go to any of this define work. I think probably the most helpful thing you said before we even started rolling the camera when we said, is there work in heaven? You said it depends on your definition of work. And that's kind of like, I don't know that I can give a one word answer yes or no because I think before you answer that, you have to define work. You tell me what you mean by work and I'll tell you whether or not I think that's happening in heaven. So yeah, to your point about the garden,
(00:41:55):
That's a good place to, we got to camp out there and figure out what's going on there, what's going on there with God giving Adam work to do. And part of what is connoted and built into the definition of work in my understanding is that work is, it's productive in the sense of producing or adding value to something like Adam took ground and planted things or I don't know, were there weeds there that needed to be tended and pulled out? Were there weeds before the fall? But what does work look like in that pre-fall garden that he could do to add value, not just to him and his own internal sense of purpose and meaning like, hey, I'm not just here to stroll through the garden and name things and feel like everything's perfect already. What value can I add? But to me, if it's work, then he's doing something to that ground in that garden to make it better. And so therefore, if it can be improved, it couldn't have been perfect. It could be good. And again, I don't think it's heretical to say any of that because we know that God added eve before the fall too
(00:43:38):
Because God saw that it was not good that man should be alone. So God improved his own creation by adding a woman and God gave Adam the ability to improve creation by working on the garden, doing something to it to make it better. So I that's part of so sorry to interrupt, but that's part of for me where just philosophically I do distinguish between that like Nancy Guthrie sounds like she does that Eden, the first paradise and the new heavens and new earth culminating paradise is that it will be unimprovable. I tend to believe that the new heavens and new earth part of what makes them new and no crying and you don't even need a son in this one because God is going to be the, it's going to be perfect and therefore can't be improved and therefore what work is there to be done, there's no more work to be done. So that's part of my
(00:44:41):
Philosophical, I'll jump to my, and if I was to make, this is the strongest argument I can make, that's the one that I would make and including the rest that we ultimately find, which is where your sermon was. Hebrews four. Yeah. In
(00:44:59):
Terms of God's rest
(00:45:01):
To again, think about story of scripture potential in the garden of Eden, perfection in the new heaven, in the new earth interjecting into Garden of Eden. You have the curse to which we know then work becomes painful, frustrating. It is hard to imagine work that does not produce frustration and pain at times. Genesis three 17 through 19, cursed is the ground because of you in pain, you shall eat of it. All the days of your life, thorn and fish shall bring forth for you and you shall eat the plants of the field by the sweat of your face, you shall eat bread till you return to the ground. Connecting to that scripture then promises that in the world to come the new heaven, the new earth, the curse will be reversed. Revelation 22, 3, no longer will anything be a cursed. So the curse of toil could be now returned to a curse of perfected work, whatever that maybe that work again, if we're making the case remains, it now remains but no longer has toil, pain, frustration, futility, failure depending on how you think about work. I think if we think of it as the ability to improve and build upon, I would say no, I don't think we could
(00:46:33):
Work can have. Maybe that's a definitional question. So how would you define work then such that it allowed for a yes answer to the question?
(00:46:45):
I would define work as in the new heaven in the new earth because I also think that is different than the work we'll do on heaven. I don't think in heaven I will be a pastor who meets with people and that I don't think that I will be raking leaves as a result of the fall, which is right now the bane of my
(00:47:12):
Existence.
(00:47:13):
If anyone wants to come rake my leaves at my house, I've got plenty to go around.
(00:47:17):
That's a good point. I mean, think of how much of the work that is done here and now is a result of the fall. Maybe not all jobs but not all jobs most. And I mean certainly you can make the case for even ours like pastoring. It's like why would you need me as a shepherd when you got your Jesus is right there in front of you, why would you need me to announce and remind you of the good news when it's like, yeah, your faith has been turned to sight.
(00:47:44):
So yeah, if I'm defining a work in heaven, it is the ability to worship God through action. And again, using that definition again is probably a little too loose. I probably should have had a more accurate definition in my notes, but I would encapsulate in that feasting and singing and praising Twitch might sound like a cop out for a lot of people, but because of how I think here in the present moment now is meant to give glimpses in a mirror of what we will do in the future, that we view work and all of life here as worship, that all of life in the new heaven and the new earth, whatever that may entail, leads towards work at worship. I equate those two things the same. Let me go through a couple, two more points related to that. If the argument is made that work will remain, you brought up Revelation 22, 3 through five, and I think that's a really helpful thing. Translated worship serve, however we think about that of God's people will serve and reign in the new heaven and the new earth and cultural mandate. Genesis three, does it continue in the new heaven and new earth in perfected ways that the original, when
(00:49:34):
You say cultural mandate, what
(00:49:35):
Do you mean? The cultural mandate? Like God's calling for Adam and Eve to subdue and fulfill and fill the earth. That in the original calling to steward and shape creation, you said Genesis three
(00:49:49):
Though,
(00:49:50):
Sorry, Genesis one
(00:49:50):
I was going to say you mean
(00:49:51):
Genesis one, Genesis and then you have the fall. It does not go away. Fill and subdue the earth. Genesis, Genesis 1 28, that we never see a revoking of that. And I think an argument, theological argument can be made that it is fulfilled and perfected in the new heaven and the new earth that I would even argue the culture mandate to fill the earth through the producing of children has a new implication for us as believers, not just in the physical reproduction of children, but in the spiritual reproduction of children. That as we spread the gospel, that that is a part of fulfilling it. That the new creation is described as a garden, as a city, as a kingdom. I think if you're making the dotted line from Genesis to Revelation that the way God has created mankind, and again, an imaginary imaginative argument could be made of the production of artists and builders and creators and gardeners.
(00:51:07):
And that again, I don't think heaven is inactivity, which we're not arguing, but I think a lot of people think heaven is an inactivity place floating around, but is perfect activity. What is the perfect activity we're doing at a minimum level, it's worshiping God in his presence with him, feasting with him and all of creation as well as the argument for a resurrected body. What's the point of a perfected body if only to sing praises? Again, not to diminish that, but Philippians 3, 23, 21, the Lord Jesus will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body. Jesus again, when he came back, he ate, spoke, led, worked after his resurrection, could a dotted line be drawn to we too will not here, but in the new heaven and new earth we will eat. Arguably we'll walk around, we'll speak, will there be work to be made possibly. And then so yeah, I think again, I would say yes, perhaps dotted line all the way across at a minimum my thinking of work and singing praises, worshiping, eating, feasting with one another. Yes. But even then that's just such that is a mere glimpse of the glory of what heaven will really be like.
(00:52:55):
I hadn't thought neither of the other two sources that I checked decided that one I hadn't thought about. Just I guess again, maybe the way you'd say it is or the way you just did say it is like we know we have glorified bodies, glorified resurrection bodies. Why? What's the point of having that if you're not going to use it, you don't even really maybe need a body, I guess you do, to have a voice to sing and praise or you need a body to eat
(00:53:30):
To feast at the heavenly banquet table. But like you said, there's any number of other things you use your body for. And again, I think so much of this is really unavoidably boils down to, like I said, the definition of work. Because again, certainly if you, for some people I think they would just, even within the definition of work itself, they would build in the Genesis three curse and the toil and like you said, and we know that's not a part of it. And again, yeah, that you already said that you agree with me that if I didn't, I didn't give you a proper definition. But what I did do, as I said, whatever your definition, I think work has to include an element. For me, it seems to include an element improving of bettering and productivity, like fixing or making something better in some way or creating, adding value, I think is how I put it, adding value. And you say you agree with me that if that's how you're going to define it or including that in work, what value can be added to perfection.
(00:55:02):
So yeah, I mean I guess a whole, and maybe this would be a whole nother speculative podcast thing, but certainly very integrally bound up in this question is that I could ask the question back to you of like, okay, if you think probably there's work in heaven, I guess my follow up question there would be what work? Because you already said it's not going to be our work pastoring, it's not going to be weeding gardens because there's no weeds in the new heaven of new earth. It's perfection. It's not going to be it for computers. There's no bugs to fix, there's no
(00:55:45):
Ai,
(00:55:45):
No pest control because there's no literal bugs to kill. So it's like we could go down the lit like of how many jobs will be irrelevant in a new heavens and new earth because it's perfect.
(00:55:59):
No butchers, there's no slaughtering of animals
(00:56:03):
In
(00:56:03):
Heaven. What is the food we're eating?
(00:56:06):
So what's left? What's left? What are the jobs? And there's a lot of, well, maybe there's not a lot of, I don't know
(00:56:12):
Evidence. If I could think of a definition of work that I think works for in heaven would be purposeful activity. And I think that's the only way I can say it without implying improvement or there is something that is lacking if it's not occurring. But everything that is done in heaven, regardless of what it may or may not be, is purposeful activity that brings glory to God.
(00:56:44):
Yeah. Like you said, maybe for me that feels insufficient as far as whatever word that is, that means purposeful activity. That seems like less than work to me because again, my definition of work is not just purposeful, but value adding activity. So maybe we're not getting on the same page about the definition and again, purposeful activity. I hear you though. I mean I could see how somebody, if you want to define it that way, to me, that one just then gets so vague. It gets so vague that it's like,
(00:57:28):
And I think that's part of it, right? The vagueness of what we understand to be the realities of the new heaven and the new earth.
(00:57:35):
Because again, like you said, the real purpose for all of it is bringing glory to God. And so then at that point you might as well just say activity instead of purposeful activity like all that. Because certainly and heaven, everything's going to be for his glory, whether it's feasting, whether it's playing football in the big yard. But yeah, I think that, again, I just keep coming back to if it's work, and this is where Piper or Piper ends his article. He says, all futility will be gone when you take sin out of the heart and out of the world, which is going to happen in the age to come. The line between work and play becomes almost invisible. What is play when all our work will be totally enjoyable?
(00:58:26):
I mean, totally. There is no work now that is totally enjoyable in this earth. All work has some element to it that we find frustrating, disappointing, futile, perhaps this is speculation. He says there will be sweet weariness of mind and body, the new body getting weary in the age to come such that it needs something different from its usual occupation, namely rest and play. I don't know. Because work itself will be so profoundly satisfying and sweet and enjoyable that nobody will say, I need a weekend. I've got to have some playtime because everything will be as happy and satisfying as play. There may be no difference anyway. So again, then it's like, well, and my pushback on that is like, well then why have the word
(00:59:11):
If work and play are synonymous, then what do they even mean anymore? So that's why I want to keep some semblance of the word work and how we understand it here, if we're going to attribute it into this conversation or import it into this conversation. So anyway, maybe we're no closer to where we started. Lemme just quickly though, make my three scripture real close, tight case for why I'm not, like I said, why I'm not just being contrarian or being lazy and not wanting to work forever, but why? I'm just like, I don't know. And like I said, I think my biggest case for me is the philosophical one, based on how I define work as adding value and how do you add value to something that's
(00:59:57):
Perfect.
(00:59:58):
That's my biggest one. But Revelation 14, 13, and I heard a voice from heaven saying, write this, blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Blessed deed says the spirit that they may rest from their labors for their deeds, follow them. So again, that's the Hebrews four entering into God's rest, revelation 14, 13, that they may rest from their labor. So again, labor work resting from that. That to me is kind of swaying me toward rest. And no labors, Ecclesiastes nine 10. That's the big one for me too that I already mentioned in the sermon on rest and work and how work here is good precisely because Solomon says, whatever your hand finds to do here, do it with your might for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in she to which you're going again, I absolutely would have to have a bigger conversation about the difference between sheel and heaven. So
(01:01:08):
As well as the, you should not add or take away to any part of scripture.
(01:01:13):
Yeah, anyway, I'm tea about, no, but to me, when I substitute in the afterlife, I think again that was their afterlife. But can we take what Solomon said about the afterlife for him and say that that's therefore true for us, for our afterlife as well. Again, that's our conversation we're having here. But to me it's at least there's a principle there that it's like, okay, well if 3000 years ago, the way God set it up was that you only get this one shot to do work. Get busy here for 70, 80, whatever years you have seven years. Don't waste it. There's only so much time to improve things. There's nothing to improve in heaven. And so add value while you can here, do work 10 gardens, pastor people, fix bugs on computers. Do something with your life. Make it count because you're going to get to and sheel for them. And again, my view, I think there's a principle there that, I mean, yeah, maybe God made it that way for them and different for us.
(01:02:31):
And then Hebrews 10, verse 12, but when Christ had offered for a single time for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. And I just think that this is a point that deserves to be mentioned in this conversation too. For me, again, not a straight line, but when the whole one, John three, two, we will be like him when we're before him. It's not just God, that's Christ. We are being transformed two Corinthians four, from one degree of glory to the next to be more like Christ. What does it mean to be more like Christ? Well, yes, John five 17, God is always working. Is Christ working right now? The second person of the Trinity, Jesus is at this right hand of God, the Father
(01:03:24):
Reigning is probably the closest you could
(01:03:27):
Get
(01:03:27):
To
(01:03:28):
And interceding on behalf of the saints. So he is interceding for us,
(01:03:34):
Which he won't need to in heaven,
(01:03:35):
Won't heaven, he won't need to in heaven. But I guess to me, my biggest thing that I'm kind of pointing to there is he's sitting, when he was done, he sat down at the right hand, which is a beautiful theological
(01:03:52):
Truth and picture for us as Christians to meditate on of Christ sitting because he meant it. When he sat on the cross, it's finished. There's no more work for him to be done. He finished the work that God gave him to do, such that now he gets to sit, he gets to rest. And so again, I think, yeah, are we going to need to be busily active in heaven and be doing things versus, and again, this is a workaholic. You and I, we work a lot and we don't hate most of our work. So I am not saying this as someone who despises, who shies away from work, but I just think, yeah, there's something beautiful about that picture of Christ resting and us being like him, therefore us resting and not needing to do any more work. So yeah, that's
(01:04:56):
To which I would agree, and I said this earlier that I think the strongest case to make for there is no work in heaven is that idea of resting in Christ, sitting down. I think if I was to sway positions, that's where I'd hang my hat on.
(01:05:16):
And if I was to be reciprocally understanding and whatever, get on your page, I would say that the strongest case for me is that, is again, this idea that work would be, will be whatever, restful, not just that. Yeah, you you're saying you can see my point with the rest, and I'm saying I can also see your point that even though, yeah, it sounds weird
(01:05:51):
To say it's unimaginable
(01:05:52):
If you boil it all down to, but if to the extent that work that you don't just need a rest from work, but that work itself can be restful and actually increase your rest or whatever, be a conduit for God's rest. I don't know. So anyway, we've talked for way too long about things that are just mysteries of God that all we can do is really speculate based on a dozen different scriptures. But I don't know
(01:06:27):
In dotted lines, and
(01:06:29):
Maybe for someone it's, it's
(01:06:31):
Been
(01:06:31):
Helpful. I hope that this is not just debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pen. I really like that the idea that our work as pastors is just naval gazing, theological, who cares? Speculative, that upset,
(01:06:51):
Uninterested in that
(01:06:51):
Work. I don't want to do that kind of work. So I hope that something in all of this has been edifying to someone who can meditate more on what heaven's going to be like and just get more excited for it or find comfort. Someone who hated their job today and is listening to this on the way home from work and just needed that reminder that it's not always going to be this way. And when they heard you say Yes, there's going to be work. Oh, they're about to pull the car over and cry. But anyway, so hopefully helpful. Who persuaded you Brian?
(01:07:28):
What's
(01:07:29):
Your
(01:07:29):
One word answer? You tie break. Is there work
(01:07:31):
In heaven? I appreciate the kind of definition of value adding. That's kind of my view of work as well. So I would say if I were to have that similar definition, which I think makes sense, I would also say that there's no work in heaven singing and feasting purposeful activity. Absolutely. But is that work? I would say probably not. There's rest in heaven.
(01:07:57):
Do we ever, maybe we just need a whole other thing on if there's work,
(01:08:03):
What is
(01:08:03):
It? What kind of work? Are there gardens to tend, are there cities to build? Are there cities to build?
(01:08:09):
There's need
(01:08:10):
To go on the parable. Are there cities to rule to have authority over? Because scripture does talk about us reigning with Christ and being co heirs, co rulers. There's more we could say, but we'd have said too much. Both those things are true.
(01:08:28):
That's good.
(01:08:29):
So you're,
(01:08:31):
I'll lean towards you. Okay.
(01:08:32):
Alright. I wasn't trying to, but I'll take it. Not the truth of Democratic. Cast your vote on our
(01:08:43):
Like for will heart for
(01:08:47):
Thad's argument. Oh, okay. There. Oh, there you go. Wait, why does he hit the heart? No,
(01:08:50):
I think is more accessible. So I think it's okay.
(01:08:53):
I'll the first option, I'll take the, then
(01:08:55):
You can have the hard or we
(01:08:56):
Can alternate it. I would like the mad face if you agree with me. Well, that's it for this week's episode of Ask the Pastors. Remember that you can submit your questions by visiting the info bar, by asking them online through a website at www west hills tl.org. And if you enjoyed this week's episode, hit that like button, like or heart, or angry face or angry face, just a vote. Subscribe, share it with a friend. Thanks so much for listening and hope to catch you right back here next week.