Ask the Pastors S6 E14: "How can the desire to make money be Godly?"
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Welcome to Ask the Pastors a segment of the West Hills Podcast where you have the opportunity to ask your questions and receive biblically grounded, pastorally sensitive answers from our pastoral staff. My name is Brian. I'm your host and one of the pastors on staff, and I'm joined by our lead pastor Will. What's up Pastor Thad. Hello, and Pastor Austin. Hello. Today we are talking about money
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Chaing,
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The question. That was a great sound. So good. A question comes to us from Cole Deming. He writes, my job is fairly sales driven, so making money is the drive, and if I do that, I'm doing my job well. However, I'm seeing this run over into my personal life as greed. God is not displeased when we make money, but how can I shift my motive behind making money to be godly?
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I think we decided we were going to title this episode,
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Can the desire
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To make money be godly? Can the desire to make money be godly? And Cole's question is really more about how can it be godly? And I do think that the motive is the main thing. Obviously I think of it's one Corinthians 10 31 maybe where Paul says, whatever you do, whether you eat or drink or do it all work hard as unto the Lord. And so I think certainly the way that we strive to make money can be God glorifying then or not. And certainly as Cole is identifying greed being kind of that maybe the desire for money for its own sake or the insatiable desire or the love of money. I mean that's the way the Bible kind of talks about it in Hebrews 13. Five, keep your free life free from the love of money. Be content with what you have. One Timothy six 10 for the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils.
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It is through this craving, this again insatiable kind of hunger and drive and need for money that many have wandered from the faith. And so I think Cole's right to be sensitive to that and check his own motives and we all should. Now that said, as I said, I think there is, and certainly as he also said, making money in itself is not bad. Wanting to make money is not inherently bad, but it's why do you want to make money? I think for instance, the desire to take care of your family is a good and godly one, is it first or second Timothy where Paul talks about the one who doesn't take care of his family is worse than an apostate. So the opposite, the desire to practically care in tangible ways for your family, which requires money is a good one. For instance, the desire to be able to bless the church, I think about one Peter four where Peter says, God has blessed you each with spiritual gifts for the edification of the church.
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And then he starts listing some of them and one of 'em he lists is generosity. And it seems pretty clear in the context in the way Peter describes it, that he's talking about financially generously contributing to the needs of the church to be able to bless and promote and flourish and keep advancing the ministry of the gospel in the church. And then especially as we look at things like the great commission and we think about Christ call to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. Well, how do you do that? You see Paul dealing very practically with this and almost every New Testament epistle he writes, there's a point at which he slips in there sometimes by the way, it takes money for me to keep getting on ship after ship. They don't often let you on ships to sail to Spain for free.
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And by the way, the church back in Jerusalem is starving right now because the famine and can y'all help out? And so we live in the real world and we have real practical needs and concerns and that stuff takes money. And even the most spiritual, I'm just going to sell everything and go be a missionary and to this remote tribe and Papua New Guinea and whatever unreached people group, it's like maybe God's calling you that, but maybe part of that is selling everything and taking the proceeds and using that because you're going to have to get a plane ticket to get there and you're going to have to, I mean, it takes money to get stuff done. And so I think understanding that and allowing for that in your mindset when it comes to the making of money and again, what's the point, the purpose, the payoff, what's the end goal here?
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And keeping that in mind, and again, not letting the desire to accumulate, kind of like Jesus told that parable of the guy who just wants to build bigger barns to store up more grain for himself. He's like, that's foolish. You don't even know if you're going to be here tomorrow to eat all that grain and all that. And so that's great. I mean that's building bigger barns to store up more for yourself and not trusting God to take care of you tomorrow. That's greed versus Hey, how can I use this to and see my money as a stewardship? It's really God's money. It's not mine that he's blessing me with for the advancement of his purposes. And how can I come alongside where God is moving in my church in missions and whatever and be a part of blessing that? And to that extent, I mean if that's really the motive and the driver, then I think that the desire to make more can be a really good thing.
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And maybe that's just me being a competitive person and wanting to find justification for that in scripture. But I mean, yeah, I think man would that we be more competitive in our pursuit of the great commission like that Christ calling to make disciples of all nations and to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. I mean, we would do well to be more competitive in that. And again, to understand that that practically requires things like money. And so yeah, I think that's how I would want to reframe it. If I am in Cole's shoes and I'm thinking, okay, my job performance is being evaluated more or less every week as a sales job based on how many new clients I get to switch over and start buying their trash services from us. What Cole does, I am thinking, yeah, if I'm competitive and I'm grinding and I want that sale and whatever, I think I'm trying to remind myself of the why in all of it. The why is not so that I can build bigger barns, but so that I can take care of my family and take care of my spiritual family and also use whatever possible knowing that the bigger my margins, the bigger anything beyond my budget that I'm able to make I get to use to come alongside gospel ministry. And that would be the kind of driving desire in that. So anyway, that's one thought.
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Yeah, I do think in line with Cole's question, I completely agree with you that a counterpoint towards the pursuit of love of money or greed, that the antidote to that is generosity to do it, to give it away. And the Bible has lots to say on money. There's more than 2000 versus all referencing money. And I think oftentimes there can be one of two sides where people fall when think about money. I either need to sell everything and I need to be poor, and I actually show my spiritual faith by the poorness that I have or I'm extremely prosperous and very wealthy and because I have great faith, God has really blessed me in that. And I think both of those extremes are really unhealthy. I don't think it's one end or the other. I think if you're thinking of it more of a triangle, another point where you were leading us to and where I think we find much more comfort and hope is and accuracy is that God in his sovereign plan gives some people more and other people's people less, but yet he calls us all to steward the resources he gives us.
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Well, and that mature believers are not based on how big their bank accounts are, but based on how they steward those things for God and for the kingdom. I think one verse, you reference it, Hebrews 13, five, keep your life free from the love of money and be content with what you have. I think as far as the motive, the why is that you're seeking to make more sales, make more money so that you can find your own security in the finances. Now, money that God gives us, we should steward it well, and it does provide security, but is it so much of a security that you are not trusting God to perhaps give above and beyond to extend your finances that God has given you to participate further and create commission work or to care for the poor or to help someone. I've always been those who have had in my life that I've experienced extra wealth beyond their means money that I have typically found that they are not ones who the mature believer are not ones who flaunt that well, but look for opportunities to be a blessing with that money that it's not a social status thing, it's not a tier, it's not look at me, but really looking for opportunities and means to give that money away to provide for others to care well for others.
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I think one example of someone who at our church just out of generosity said, Hey, I would really love to buy study bibles for all of the students that a good study Bible could cost up to $50 and said, I don't want anyone to know this. I just really want to be generous and I want to bless the students of this church that they can read Bible read a good study Bible in that way. And I'm like, that's a way of stewarding finance as well, that that individual has above and beyond what they need and they say, Hey, I would like do this. And so I think instead of seeking to be greedy, instead of seeking to lift oneself up, instead of seeking to find contentment and money to pursue after, how can I be generous with this? How can I do the best that I can at my job and as a byproduct be able to be more generous with what God has given me?
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So can I put you on the spot? Go for it. Because I know enough of your story and you've shared with me that this was a personal maybe struggle for you at some point in the past. You had a very lucrative high paying job in the secular world, sales driven you kill kind of thing, and you killed a lot and you did it well. And eventually it got to the point where you were able to prayerfully lay that down, not that God's calling everyone to that, but you felt called to ministry and felt called to give that up to pursue service to God in a vocational capacity. But I'm just curious how Cole's question hits home for you and for someone who might potentially, I don't know if Paul would go this far as to say that he's maybe feels himself being pulled and could very easily if he's not careful, drift onto that path that you found yourself at times on how you would maybe counsel him even in practical ways as he's in the midst of his Monday to Friday and grinding and all that. How would you counsel him to be transformed by the renewing of his mind to pursue his work meaningfully, but for the sake of Christ and not for the love of money?
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I think one thing that I wish I had had done earlier is, and I don't think many of us, in fact, I know I've not had this conversation in any kind of life group or D group have accountability in this area. We don't really talk about that. And I still feel, just so it's clear, my income dropped quite a bit when I moved into ministry. And that's still a struggle for me of like, wow, this is so much less than the highest paying years of my life.
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And when your identity is tied up in that, whether it's in just the sales profession or the broader culture or your sense of opportunity is tied up in that I have to preach the gospel to myself and to remind myself pretty regularly still the longings of riches in my heart is something that really only Jesus meets. Now I'm not advocating to Thad's point, kind of a cynicism where my family and I go sit in the dirt and that's how we live. That's a terrible idea too. So it can be easy to think that that's the ripe pursuit, but that's not true because God's creation is all good and he has instruments in it that can drift our hearts if we don't guard them. So let's use a parallel, I think in ministry. Ministry is one where people that are leaders in ministry are often given stages and platforms. What's the sinful risk of a stage or platform? It's pride.
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And
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So should you power? Yeah, power, pride. So should you want to preach good sermons that people want to hear, of course you should. Can it go to your heart? Of course it can. Do you need to guard your heart? Of course. And I think that last one is the one I would say is to guard your heart. And if that means coming to your D group and be like, Hey, or life group or somebody be like, Hey, listen, I just know my heart is tied up in this in ways that is risky. I want to know that this is a place I can talk about or y'all can challenge me of like, Hey, where is your heart with relation to materialism? I don't think I've ever had somebody come and I know that I have it and said, I knew I shouldn't have bought this thing and I did and it was a waste and I did it anyway. We don't really think of that as kind of a sin in our culture at times. And I'm not saying, again, I'm not talking about asceticism. I'm not saying that you shouldn't enjoy God's created goods, but I think sometimes we know in our hearts like this isn't just something to enjoy. This is a kind of self-indulgence that a sinful part of my heart wants right now. And I'm being challenged to say no, and I need to say no. And this is somebody who's really struggled with
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This.
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So hear me say that. That's the challenge with money. And I was before this podcast, I was thinking about a dear friend of mine that is not a believer thinks he is, but it's just very clear. And we came into the industry at the same time. We worked for two different companies at the same time and then we split and he went to one that there's this big industry shake and everybody, that company was throwing a lot of money at people. He went to that one. I went to a different one. And even in the years where I, 2018, I think I had one of the largest transactions in our industry globally.
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There was one guy that worked for his company that had one at Boeing that was larger by about $3 million. My pay plan would not have been nearly what this guy was paid, but my friend made considerably more money than I did and I was doing pretty well. I had a couple of years there that worked good. And then I had one or two that worked particularly large and this friend of mine had some that were a W2 of seven figures, which is unusual for most people in any industry, especially if you're not someone that owns the company is just selling stock as an employee, grew up in a trailer park as by comparison. And the kind of lack of a sense of a need for a savior breaks my heart and I love this guy. And that was my experience in my industry. It's a heavily male dominated, really bunch of greedy sales guys and it affected my heart being in and around that environment all the time and not being really well rid in a local church during much of that time. And so my counsel is guard your heart because we live in a culture that really elevates and thinks that people that make money can be good at anything. This is why we have the demi gods of Donald Trump and Elon Musk is because they've made a lot of money. Surely they can solve any
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Problem.
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And so that can creep into our consciousness very quickly is that we begin to think that we're really what we're made of and what we're made of is all this money that we brought to the table. And to be sure God could give coal in such a way, in a pay plan in a company, in a market time and condition where those all things can go together at the same time. And it is fun. To your point on being competitive sales is a lot like sports and I love sports. You love sports, I think you love sports, you kind of like sports not, but sports are fun and it's fun to compete just for the love of the game and guard your heart.
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Yeah, I think that's really good. Counsel. As far as the accountability and community surrounding yourself with people who are going to remind you of the gospel and preach to you, I think I imagine it can be difficult to be real, I guess honest, open, vulnerable, transparent, whatever about, because I imagine that could very quickly sound like, because money is such a idol in our culture, it can very easily sound like pride and sound like eog,
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Look at me and
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All. If somebody walked into my life group asking for prayer about their sin struggle of making so much money, it's going to their heart. A lot of us are going to be like, well boohoo,
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That sounds really hard. I
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Just feel like it's one of those because of the way we have stigmatized so many sins, it is kind of similar to the person who comes in with lust or pornography and it's kind of like ew. I mean they each have their own kind of stigmas that are really unhelpful and that really probably disincentivize that brother or sister from feeling like they can come in and talk about it, which is unfortunate. And also because it's also a tricky one where it really just is subjective, isn't it? I mean it's very hard, like you said, to be super objective with your specific example of I just bought this thing and I'm realizing I didn't need it. That was not a good wise decision. I actually would say it crossed the line in dissent. It's the kind of thing that, again, I think it can be very hard to where that line is, and maybe you can only be discerned
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Personally.
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I'll just share the quick story of in a sermon a couple years back, I can't remember even what the text was now, but I think it was something about, maybe it was Hebrews 13 in a lot of money, or maybe it was a one Timothy six kind of thing. But I remember opening with just the new, at that point, whatever, 20, 23, whatever year it was, Corvettes had come out and man, they were sweet. Remember when the Corvettes did the new body design and thought they looked, I thought there was a Lamborghini the first time I saw one. And then I'm like, that's a Corvette. I used to be really into cars. And so anyway, I was just drooling over this car and so I just kind of shared the story of my own own heart and desire for stuff and materialism. And someone came, you remember someone got really bent out of shape. They had a Corvette, he had an old Corvette. It wasn't even one worth drooling over, but he got real bent out of shape. He took it as a personal attack that you're saying that it's a sin buy a or to want to buy even a quarter anyway, but it's just no, that's not the point. That's not the point for me, me to sit there. And yeah, the love of money and the love of stuff, the love of stuff that money can buy.
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Mine was when I noticed if there was no hesitation for me to buy something that was quite expensive because I had to get to the other end of the need
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Or a perceived need, that's when I look back and especially in the rear view mirror, I can see, ooh, that was me really wanting something in a way that wasn't okay when there was just no hesitation. What would be easy for me to spend money on that Some people would be like, there's no way I would spend money on that and not because I'm not interested because maybe that's just foolish to do. And there were times where also that wasn't the case. And so I think to your point will is the motive goes both ways.
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And I think there's a lot of factors again, why it has that stigma. And again, the number one is just because we live in a culture of society, of effluence. And our church in particular is located in the middle of town and country, which is one of the wealthiest township suburbs of the greater St. Louis area. And yeah, it's, it's one of those, was it Jerry Bridges or who was it that talked about sort of socially acceptable respectable sins? Respectable sins wrote the book called Respectable Sins. And I mean I think greed and materialism in particular would have to top that list.
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So yeah, if you were going to like, we're reading through right now, it's still the Bible in a year as a family and we're getting into judges and Gideon just this morning got called to go and chop down his father's ASRA poll. And again, these are the gods that Israel moved in and started assimilating with the Canaanites and just got somehow wooed by and whore after. And I think you'd have to say if it was a modern day equivalent, it's Christians in our country assimilating to American society and our Asher Pole is the god of mammon.
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Jesus said, you can't serve 'em both. You can't serve me and mammon money, materialism. Materialism is kind of what that means. So personification of materialism. So yeah, just that accountability and that call to be real vigilant with it. So are there other practical ways that y'all can think of that might be beneficial to a Cole or someone like him who feels like, yeah, I know that this is going to be a temptation, a danger, so inviting accountability from others, other things? I mean practically just something that comes to mind for me, like having a budget. Is that an accountability tool that maybe could help guard you against click and add to cart or buy now? So hastily or even if you're married, obviously having that accountability with your spouse. Hey, because I'm just thinking about that We are doing tis the season for premarital counseling
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And so we just with you and Amanda last week, Brian, we're talking about in our premarital stuff about finances and budgeting and one of the questions on the assessment was we have a defined amount beyond which we will not spend without consulting each other and even just baking in that kind of accountability in your marriage for instance, if for no other reason, for the sake of the harmony of your marriage, I want to go home and have to answer for you spend how much on, I don't know, what was it for? You don't even know. I don't spend money, so I don't know what we won't ask. It's easy for me to have this conversation because we're not touching all my sins. You brought up the power in the pulpit and I'm like, okay, you're touching a nerve now, but yeah, no money. I mean you can have mine. So anyway, but other things y'all can think of as far as just practically on this and steps that someone could take to guard their heart.
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I don't think I have any other, I love all that was said. I think generosity, absolutely. What are some needs in the church that I can fill? How can I provide for the church family
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That's good. Who comes to mind?
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Like
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That strong offense is always the best defense. If I'm thinking so offensively, proactively about how I can use this money to bless and flourish others in the kingdom, it might detract, certainly prevent from that.
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And I think just if that's the particular sin bent towards greed and love of money is to make it a regular part of your daily rhythm of prayer and asking for sensitivity from the Holy Spirit about that, that my conscience would be really sensitive to this particular love of money, that I would be so sensitive that I would listen and that I would respond appropriately. And maybe it does look like before purchases of praying, legitimately praying for them. We tend to throw in prayer as a like, well, that's something you can do, but that is a active thing that we can do. It's not just merely passive.
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Yeah, the budget one came to mind because in prayer alongside some of the examples of people that I've heard and we've all heard of probably the stories at this point that have done that well are just so compelling and so convicting, I'm sure for people who struggle with that is like a John Wesley who when a John Wesley who the founder of the Methodist Church and movement and all that, who decided before he started his ministry when he moved to America from England or whatever, he budgeted and he figured out, I can live on $30 a week. That's what I need. I think it was, or whatever it was. And so as he got bigger and bigger and God blessed his ministry and he had whatever, I mean at one point the Methodist Church was the biggest in America and millions of, he was rolling. I mean, I'm sure he was getting, I don't know how much he was getting paid to travel all over itinerant preacher and come and just do revivals for us. And he was rolling in it and he lived on $30 a week and he gave everything over that. He reinvested it right back into the church and the ministry,
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I think of Rick Warren and his reverse tithing, and I mean the guy's a multi multimillionaire now and selling all the books and this and that and say what you want about him and women pastors and whatever, who cares? But secret friendly church. But I mean, the guy is over the top generous fifth
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On
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10%. Reverse tithing. Yeah, tithing. He lives on 10%. And actually I think what he's done, my understanding is what he's done since then is every year, whenever he made that was able bless so much. He's like, I just need 10% of this. And every year since then, he's dropped at a percent and he's like, now he's living on, I don't know, one or 2% of what he makes a year. And it's still, again, so much more than what he really needs, but just those kinds of things. But yeah, the examples stand out because it's so countercultural to how build bigger barns, build bigger barns and just what is sadly socially acceptable. So
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Yeah. Well, that's it for this week's episode of Ask the Pastors. Remember that you can submit your questions by visiting the info bar at West Hills or by asking them online through our website at www.westhillstl.org. We're going to be taking off the next two weeks. We have two conferences that some of us are attending. First is the PASPA Coalition and the EFCA Central conference these next two weeks. So we're going to have a two-part special episodes of West Hills History, so looking forward to releasing those lots of great content and behind the scenes history of the church. And if you enjoyed this week's episode, hit that like button, subscribe and share it with a friend. Thanks so much for listening and we'll catch you next week.