Ask the Pastors S5 E9: “What makes denominations different?”

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Welcome to Ask the pastors a segment of the West Hills Podcast where you have the opportunity to ask your questions and receive biblically grounded, pastorally sensitive answers from our pastoral staff. My name is Brian, I'm your host and one of the pastors I'm joined by our lead pastor Will. Yes, pastor Thad. Hey everyone. And Pastor Austin. Hello. And we have a question today. Do we know who submitted? This one? Didn't actually look, I think it said anonymous. So thank you anonymous for submitting this question. He asks for denominations that preach Jesus plus something equals salvation. Do they still have salvation through Jesus alone, even if they think more is needed? Example Catholics all the way to Mormons,

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You can start, yeah, I'll get us going and we can jump on it and you guys can add or fix anything. And just as a, I'd like to just say thank you to whoever asked the question fits somewhat well with even our previous conversation about what makes certain denominations different, distinct, and I would just add to that Roman Catholicism, Mormonism really kind of outside the bounds, not even considered denominations and thinking in it that way, but we can talk about some of those different components of it. I think this question is a question that isn't one that isn't new. This is directly really what the Apostle Paul addresses in Galatians. The idea of adding in grace plus works or a way of bringing about salvation. And I think it's a question that also is something that affects us today and how is it that we are people, Christians who believe in Jesus, but also do try and think about how there works.

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And it comes back to a blurring of the lines of what is justification and what is sanctification and how those two things are distinct from each other. Oftentimes in Roman Catholicism, those two lines are blurred that there is justification and works involved. So sanctification, Roman Catholic teaching, they would adamantly declare that faith is necessary for salvation, but it doesn't merely stop there. That faith and Catholic theology is the starting point that begins one of their statements on baptism. Justification has been merited for us by the passion of Christ. It is granted to us through baptism. So they're equating, I must be baptized in order to be saved versus I am placing my faith and trust in Jesus and therefore I'm saved as a result in obedience come to be baptized. And that again, there's difference of opinion view, trying to be charitable to how a Catholic would portray themselves that they would say that baptism is necessary for salvation, for those whom the gospel has been proclaimed as a requirement of a sacrament.

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I would also just on that note add, we can too, in terms seek to add to our own salvation that we as Christians, evangelicals would adamantly declare that standing before God on judgment day, that the only thing we can say, why should I let you in heaven? Not by any works of my own, only by the blood of Jesus. He makes it very clear in the gospel is John 14, six, I'm the way of the truth, the life. Matthew 1128 come to me all who are weary and burden and I will give you rest that Jesus wants people to stop doing their work to try and earn their salvation, simply put their faith and trust in him. Or in John chapter six where he's asked what are we to do so that we may accomplish the works of God? Jesus answers them and says, this is the work of God that you believe in him and whom he has sent.

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That the overall message of the Bible is clear that it's only faith alone, grace alone through Christ alone that we receive is salvation. And yet we have different moments throughout scripture Acts 15, the Jerusalem council, we have Paul and Galatians one where these Christians, Paul says, Hey, how are you so confused? How are you so bewitched? How have you so quickly forgotten the gospel? And I think a way in which we do that today seeking to add works to the gospel and then I'll let you guys talk, is when we confuse our sanctification, how it is that we become more like Jesus and put it at the same level as our justification of how it is we have right standing before God for people to say like, man, I felt so guilty about not reading my Bible this morning, therefore I have to read my Bible more in order to earn some sort of right favor before God. I'll just say, you should read your Bible every day. You should desire to, but that is not a merit earning of salvation, doing that, praying something we should do, not something that places any sort of work towards our salvation that we are justified through faith alone in Christ alone. And then as a result of that we carry out our good works. So I'll stop there. I'll let you guys pick up on that.

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  Yeah, I think for context, this question was submitted right around the time probably right? We preached because we're going through Ephesians right now and it was right after we preached, I preached on Ephesians two and that famous classic articulation of the gospel that Paul gives us there, that it is by grace that we are saved through faith, not by works lest than anyone should boast. It's a free gift of God and it goes on and on. But the way the question is framed, I've even, because because I'm a math guy, I've even sort of given phrase equations this in terms of two equations that we can look at and see and compare the differences. So the Ephesians to eight and nine gospel and the biblical gospel is Jesus slash grace. Jesus is the gift of God. He brings grace from God. He is God's gift to us.

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  So Jesus grace plus faith equals salvation plus works because Jesus is clear and Paul is clear and James is clear and the Bible is clear even in that Ephesians two context in verse 10, Paul says, you are God's workmanship created in him for good works that he prepared beforehand that you should walk in them. So God has saved us for his own glory and part of the way that God gets glory is by saving us, sanctifying us, cleansing us, and then causing us to want to obey him and to do good works. But that is subsequent to salvation. So again, Jesus plus faith in him leads to or is equivalent to salvation plus works that then accompany that on the other side of that equation, if you think of it as a chemical reaction, if you mix grace and faith, you're going to get a salvation explosion and the byproduct is works. And then there's lots of false gospels that say grace plus faith plus something else. You need some other sort of chemical, what's it called when the chemicals are on the left hand side of the equation like no

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  Idea, a reactant or

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  Something. Reactant, yeah, you need others. You're talking to the wrong, I thought you. Okay. So you need other reactants in that if you just mix the grace and faith, it's not sufficient to cause the spiritual chemical reaction that leads to salvation. So you got to mix in some works of your own or whatever and add that in. And so that's kind of how I think what the question is getting at here. And so the question is if that's your theology, if you're coming at this thinking, okay, I believe in Jesus believe he is who he says who he is, all that.

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  And so he's the grace, I believe God sent him, I believe he's got all that died for me. I believe so there's faith there. I've got faith. But in my theology, I need to add some other thing to the equation here that's going to be sufficient then for salvation, do I still have salvation? That's the question. Does this person still have salvation through Christ alone? Even if they think their works are adding to and contributing something to this reaction, this equation, this salvation, can they still be saved? And I think you're right, dad, that Galatians for sure is the book to go to because that's exactly the situation that Paul is dealing with. He's dealing with Jewish Christians or at least maybe even some Gentile converts to Christianity who then get influenced by the circumcision party or the Judaizers. There's some call basically this group of Jewish alleged Christians who believe that it's not enough to trust in Christ for salvation. You also have to become a Jew basically and observe the law that Christianity is a subset as it were of Judaism. So to be a real Christian, you have to become a real Jew, which means circumcision, which means following the law, et cetera. And so Galatians, I mean that's the reason

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  That Paul wrote Galatians and it's interesting, even in his intro, I was curious. So I look back, I just read quickly back through Galatians and it's interesting, most of his letters Paul begins with by writing to, and a lot of 'em, he will say to the saints in Ephesus, like in Ephesus that we're studying now or to the believers in Corinth or whatever it is with this one, he says to the churches, to the churches in Galatia, to the Ecclesia in Galacia. So multiple assemblies, churches of folks that are getting together. And I think that's a little interesting that he doesn't address them as the saints in Galatia. And I do wonder if it's because he knows what he's about to write in this letter that Paul knows he's writing to a mixed bag of people.

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  He's not writing just to the believers, he's not writing he, he's maybe writing to some people who think they're believers but they are not truly trusting in Christ for salvation alone, that they are adding to the gospel and therefore polluting it, perverting it, corrupting it and making it into a not gospel, which is basically what he tells 'em right out of the gate. Galatians 1 68, I'm astonished so quickly discerning him Christ who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel. Not that there is another one. If he had scare quotes, he would've back in ancient point a Greek, he would've put it in scare quotes, a different gospel. There's not a different gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ and want to teach you falsely lead you as strain at thinking that you're following the gospel.

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  And then he says, if me or them or even an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one that you first received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, let him be a cursed. And there's so many others I don't want to read all. Let me read two other quick passages from Galatians chapter three verses 10 and 11. All who rely on works of the law or under a curse for it is written cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law. And to do them. Now, it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law. So of course again, in Paul's day it was Jesus plus circumcision, plus following the law, then maybe you can be saved in certain religions. Today it's Jesus plus baptism or Jesus plus be a good person.

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  There's any number of things you might add to that. It's all law. I mean it's all a checklist. It's all a do this or don't do this. And salvation hangs in the balance. Galatians five, two through four. Look, I Paul say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. So what he's saying is this is how, I mean you can disagree, but if you add anything else on the left hand side of that chemical reaction, Jesus plus faith, grace, faith is enough, sufficient for salvation. And what he's saying is if you stir anything else up in the potion, you don't get salvation anymore. Christ will be of no advantage. You actually nullify is the word Paul uses. He says in chapter two verse 21, I do not nullify the grace of God by trying to add works of the law to it. For if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. His argument is if there was something that we could do to merit our salvation, then Jesus' death was for nothing.

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  And so by trying to add those works back in you nullify, you make null and void, you negate the efficacy of Christ, the Christ aloneness of salvation. Lemme just finish that Galatians five passage. So if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. If you are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law, you have fallen away from grace. I mean those are strong statements that to me seem to not just suggest but make really clear that those are two different gospels and one of 'em is really a gospel. The one that Jesus plus graceless faith leads to salvation and works as a byproduct. That's the real gospel. And then every other iteration of so-called scare quotes, gospel Jesus grace plus faith, trusting in him but also trusting in you need to do some stuff is not a gospel. And not only is not a gospel, but it actually nullifies it negates it. It undermines the thing that makes the gospel, the gospel and makes it so potent and wonderful that it's not because of anything that we have or could do. So I guess all of that, and I'll let Austin talk now, but

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  Richard,

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  To answer the question in a one word way, do they still have salvation through Jesus alone, even if they think that they're adding something to it? I mean Paul seems to say, no, no, you are severed from Christ, you have fallen away from grace.

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  Yeah, I want to make a couple comments and just points on the question because dad mentioned at the beginning on the no and denominations and that God is in same denominations, he same persons. And so there are persons that to be sure are in Protestant churches that are not in Christ. I think we can say that. I think we could probably also say that there are those that are in Roman Catholic churches that are in Christ because they have turned from their sin and put their faith in him.

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  For sure.

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  We can also put our faith in Christ and doubt our salvation. And for those of us who are in Christ, I've had more moments of doubt in my salvation in my adulthood, just a deeper understanding of meaning and so forth, which is a kind of sin because I'm no longer putting my faith and trust in a moment by moment kind of way. In the same sense also, if I keep a strong distinction but inseparability between the doctrines of justification and sanctification, that would be a sin. But I'm still justified because I have been declared righteous.

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  The question's also interesting because it poses the question of I think what's behind the question about Catholics and Mormons is that both of you are talking about this person of Jesus. And so I want to comment a little bit about on that is that in reform, Protestant and Roman Catholic, there's actually a decent amount of connection between a belief in the person of Christ. We both believe that in the hypostatic union that there are the two natures in the one person, his sinless life, that actually his work is a sufficient kind of atonement at that point. The point of departure moves in different directions as how that atonement is applied. But in Mormonism in particular though, that changes a lot in the person of Christ. We both will use the word Jesus Christ, and I'm sorry, I should say Latterday saints, I know they changed their terminology to LDS.

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  So on the off chain we have an LDS listener, so an LDS, that they do believe in Jesus Christ is divine, but that the three persons of the Trinity are distinct and separate, that they aren't one substance that we would affirm in the Orthodox Christian faith. So the question I think is asking, well, what if somebody's LDS and they believe in Jesus and they believe in his sufficiency of salvation, and we need that grace of the salvation, which LDS do believe, are they saved? And my answer is no, because it's someone named Jesus, but it's not the same person because there's a difference in the belief of who the person actually is going back then to your point will on Galatians, yeah, I have a professor I think put this just in a very pithy way, much of Paul's messages in Galatians, if you want to follow works of the law, fine, but if you think that does anything for you, there's only one outcome and you've read it, it's cursed. So that's an important distinction. It's like can someone follow works of the law? And when I say works of the law for any nerd on the podcast, there's been no shortage of debate in the past 30 years on what works of the law mean. And I think that's worth just a quick mention upon for some people, and that

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  I think there's three ways that that can be read. One is a kind of legalism where we're trying to earn God's favor, the next being all that the law entails, meaning the mosaic law given at Sinai. And number three, this is where the waters got really muddied in a movement broadly called the new perspective on Paul, which is not in Catholicism, it's actually in the Protestant side of things, which talks about the works of the law being cultural and ethnic boundary markers. So when I'm talking about works of the law, I think the most correct one is the second one, meaning doing what the law requires. I've heard a lot of Protestants read works of the law and they think more of that first one, the legalism of trying to build up some kind of curry, some kind of favor with the divine. I think Paul, which we can take that number two, what the law requires an abstract it so to speak, to appeasing God. But a sense, I think what he's saying is keeping the law given Sinai. So the short answer is like no, someone has to turn in repentance and faith. But to add a little bit more clarity, I grew up in that I did not grow up in a reformed tradition. And so to me, faith then began to look a lot like a work.

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  So how would you respond to someone that says, yeah, but pastor will, you just said that you need grace plus faith in Jesus. You've putted these two things on one side of the equation. How is that not adding to the salvation? How would you respond to the person asking that question?

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  Yeah, I'd say faith has to come from God, just like grace has to come from God, the faith. Even reading with my kids this morning in our devotionals in John six where Jesus says, no one comes to me unless my father draws him. So it's clear over and over again all through scripture, none of us has faith. None of us chooses God unless we're called, we're drawn by God. And so the grace is a gift from God. The faith is a gift from God. We don't get any credit for if by God's grace he caused me or you or someone to actually be able to hear the gospel and have our heart changed and come forward in our tradition we grew up in and sign the pledge card and pray with the pastor down at the altar and whatever that decision of faith was truly a decision of God. And so yeah, we can't take any more credit for that than we could from being circumcised or baptized or any other work or thing that we would've done that contributed or was part of that salvation, not process, but yeah, however you want to call that.

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  There's been times in my life looking at trying to not necessarily earn salvation in a forensic sense, what theologians call like the whole courtroom standing for the judge. Are you his righteousness to me? Am I sin to

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  Him?

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  But I for a long time believe that Jesus loves me. This I know for the Bible tells me, but the Father is really disappointed in me if I would just get my act together. And so in one sense, not trying to earn salvation in that entry into his new creation, entry into fellowship with him, but needing to earn the love and an affect of God is something that I could still say that for much of my life I made a mistake upon, but they're related. And so would I then say that I wasn't trusting in Jesus for my salvation? No, but I certainly need a lot of work clarifying what all is available in the inheritance for those who are justified and then adopted into his family.

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  And I think it comes back to having a hard time wrestling with what do we do with works? Because we either tend towards legalism or li consciousness and well, I do trust in Jesus, but what am I supposed to do with these works and how do I not rely on them? How do I not think about them is like it's earning me special favor in Mary and God's going to really bless me because of this, or it doesn't really matter how I live because I'm saved in that. And just the internal struggle that we can tend to. And I think most people lend one of those two ways

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  I have to work really hard or I'm just going to lean really heavy into grace and trying to provide an encouragement of we find our identity and the work of what Jesus has done and will. You've done, I think a really good job of encouraging our congregation in particular of thinking of how it is that our works actually are a living out of our faith versus a reliance on our faith that although they're evidence of our faith, it is not what we point to as this is the reason I have faith, although it bears out fruit of our faith.

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  And I'm trying to think through this question from every possible angle. And I guess the last thing I want to say on it is, let me take it away from the denominational level. I think that was helpful for a person, so not denominational, official doctrine, beliefs, statement of faith stuff, but for a person who instead of Christ alone is enough, who's wrestling with this question and wrestling with assurance of salvation, like you said, Austin, and just feeling like I'm not enough. I need to do, I want to do more for God, or how could he love me unless I measure up to this or that or whatever it is that they are trying to add to their salvation or that they feel like they're lacking and still falling short of being able to be assured of that Christ is enough and that they're saved.

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  I think I for one would always want to, first of all, God alone knows someone's heart, and I think even there's a way of wrestling with that and doing that that could be really selfish self, even if it's insecurity. I mean insecurity. I think Tim Keller does a good job of pointing out how self-centeredness is not just pride in thinking I'm better than people, that even insecurity is a form at the opposite end of the spectrum of self-centeredness. It's still all about me. I'm so bad. I'm so this and so, but I think there's a way of, I do think it's possible for somebody to really struggle with, as you said, Austin, that self doubt and whatever in a way that doesn't nullify the work and grace of Christ in their life. And I would want to assure them of his sufficiency and try and get pastorally, help them to get their eyes so much off their own insufficiency and onto Christ and his sufficiency.

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  But again, to your point about let's make sure we don't turn this graceless faith, the faith part into a work and come down so hard on this person who has so little faith because they're still looking so much at the smallness of their faith or the smallness of the evidence of their salvation by virtue of the lack of works and fruit of salvation on the other side of the reaction. But yeah, all of that to say, I think Christ is big enough and gracious enough to cover a lot of those offenses and a lot of that insecurity and self doubt, self-consciousness, selfishness, self-centeredness, that even for the person who should be way more focused on Christ and just blown away by his grace and look at their shortcomings and say, wow, how much more amazing that makes it that I saved that Christ is enough to even save a sinner like me who's still a work in progress, that even if they don't have that mindset, I think what we see time and time again in his word is that Jesus is just very compassionate and merciful

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  And tender hearted. And so I want to add that caveat in there, that yeah, there are folks like the Judaizers in the circumcision party that are false teachers, that are the ones like distorting the gospel and trying to pull other people into it, apparently even for self-centered gain to fleece the sheep and to make a living off of let's start our own churches. There's still that going around today. Some of that, those folks are in a different category. Some of the folks who just need more sanctification, who just need a deeper understanding of just how sufficient Christ is and that it's really more about him and what he's done than about the lack of whatever they think they need to add to it. Amen.

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  Good. Any other final words?

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  I would just make two like the yesterday, I'm thinking of our service yesterday. I think it hits well on your point here, will is one of my favorite songs is also Sufficient Merit that we've been singing here the past couple of years, is that it so well spells out the theology behind it all is Jesus Christ and Him incarnate, crucified, and resurrected. It's sufficient to save you. Yes. And then the second one being, and you mentioned this when you're preaching in Ephesians five of how one of the roles of the Holy Spirit is the beautifying of Christ to our hearts. He's the one that in time shows us how good and perfect and sufficient Christ is. And so for someone that if we do have a listener that is feeling a lack of assurance or perhaps feeling a conviction over a heavyweight on either works, even if it might be something like the way we've misused a work of faith, that we may pray in communion with the Holy Spirit, that he would beautify Christ to us. That's my closing comment. Yeah.

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  Well, that's it for this week's episode of Ask the Pastors. Remember that you can submit your questions by visiting the info bar at West Hills or by submitting them online through our website at www.westhillstl.org. If you enjoyed this week's episode, hit that like button, subscribe and share it with a friend, and be sure to join us next week or we address the question, what is a biblical stance on IVF? Thanks so much for listening. We'll catch you next week.