Ask the Pastors S6 E19: “Did God Change the Way He Punishes Sin?"

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Welcome to this week's episode of Ask the Pastor where you ask and receive biblical answers from pastoral staff here at West Hills. Some of 'em are we hosting

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If we don't have our usual host, do we have a host?

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I don't know if we're ever going to have all four of us for the rest of the summer. Somebody's going to be skipping.

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Yeah, your special host. Oh wait,

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We're going to take off this

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Summer. Your special host here, Thad, the OG host,

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The OG host,

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Host second tier. I'm also joined by Pastor Austin. Hello. And pastor will pause for dramatic sound. I just pushed the first

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Button on

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This sound box appropriate. We need a way to make, but no, we are without Brian today, but we are still going strong with our Isn't it celebratory though that he's not here? He got married. Is that laughing? How about this one? I don't know man. I give up. We'll get a better sound effect for, but anyways, we're going to jump on into our question. Our question today comes from the one and only Polly Deval and her. She probably didn't want it to people to know

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It's from her too late now. Sorry

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Polly. So why we need a better host.

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She's like, quit saying that I submitted the questions. I don't know if she's embarrassed of the questions or if she just thinks that she gets preferential treatment.

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We all just have one friend and it's poly. Yeah,

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We'll just say they're all from

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Good question. It is.

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This question though comes following up our sermon on numbers 25 where

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God sends a plague and after that, before in chapter 21, you have the sending of the snakes. You have in chapter 16, the swallowing up of Quora. And so the question is summarized in this, why do folks like Pat Robertson get in trouble for saying that Hurricane Katrina was God's judgment on the sin of the city of New Orleans? When we see God judging folks in exactly those kind of ways in the Bible, should we not expect to see God punish sin in the same kinds of direct ways today? Was there something about Jesus that changed the way that God punishes sin towards all people today? Or to summarize it a little bit differently, has the way God punishes sin changed

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  Or does God still punish sin in the same ways he used to all kind of the same thing. How do you feel about standing up? We didn't ask you. It's too late. It's too late. I'm here. We were tired of sitting.

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  My hands are going to be moving. I need something to grab wild gesticulation.

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  Well, y'all can go first. I

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  You already answered the question before

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  First. Well, I started my answer and once I start, I can't stop. I said I was going to start and I said

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  About, and then you answered,

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  I feel like I said most of what I had to say after the sermon follow up podcast from week before last after the chapter 25 sermon. So why don't y'all go for it.

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  I'll say a few things.

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  Should we add context on? Because the one example she gave was Pat Robertson. Y'all probably remember that. I don't know if all of our listeners, we've got some young people at the church now. Hurricane Katrina happened

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  2005.

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  Yeah, I was going to say it's 20 years ago, right? This is kind of coming up on the anniversary of that. What at the time was one of or the most kind of destructive natural disasters in American history, I think. Anyway, but yeah, pat Robertson sort of infamously said it was God's judgment on the city of New Orleans for being so sinful even though it hit lots of other cities and even the part of the city of New Orleans that it hit was not the

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  Most sinful

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  Bourbon street, but it's nothing new with AIDS in the eighties and nineties, even nine 11 televangelist, God's judgment on the gay community, nine 11, that one was, I feel like especially got heated when people start try and connect dots between this really devastating sort of disaster slash judgment of God and then

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  Or government conspiracy. But that's for another

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  Anyway, so yeah, how should Christians think about these things?

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  I would begin with talking about how God has decreed that all will come to pass. So just looking at scripture, Psalm 33 11, the council of the Lord stands forever the plans of his heart to all generations. Ephesians one 11. In him, we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the council of his will. And at the same time, God is not the author of sin. So in Psalm five, four, fear you are not a God who delights in wickedness. Evil may not dwell with you. Part of the question is making a distinction between what is going on with the people of Israel in a redemptive historical way in the book of numbers verses what is going on in a modern context. So in the book of numbers, the Lord is bringing about a type of judgment, might even say like a curse upon his people with whom he has established a covenantal relationship Back in Leviticus 26, there's the whole section on here are the blessings that if you obey and then twice as long, here are all the curses.

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  If you disobey what Pat Robertson does that I think is especially problematic is that he presumes to know the mind of God. I think he's overplaying his hand with respect to wisdom and claiming God's eyes point of view to be sure part of the punishment's force sin or the experience of being in a fallen world includes suffering at the hands of things like disease, sickness, death being the ultimate consequence of sin, natural disasters and so forth. But to stand apart from a natural disaster as a prophetic judge and say that I can somehow make a determination over the reason that this is coming to pass is putting oneself in the place of god's and his point of view to be sure we all suffer consequences because of being on this side of the fall as a result of sin.

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  That's I think the thrust of what I said after the sermon from week before last was as you said, Austin, the problem, the reason we can do it with the biblical examples and there's lots of 'em from numbers is specifically because God himself has revealed the mind of God to us in his word and said, y'all did this, therefore consequence I did this. And we don't have that kind of direct revelation from God of how his will comes to pass in relation to sort of cause and effect a stimuli in the world anymore. I think the interesting thing is, so if we get to the question of does Jesus somehow change the way that God works in relation to his people in punishing sin? I mean obviously yes, Jesus

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  Dramatically changes, but if we got more specific, I mean, does God still punish sin in these kinds of direct ways like you see in the book of numbers post Jesus? And I think and we could disagree, but I think to me the biblical answer has to be that yes, yes, God does still sometimes punish sin even in the lives of believers in really direct ways. So you have multiple examples I think in scripture. I mean the first couple that come to mind are in Acts five with anani and of fire. Some would argue Anani sense of fire were posers and not really believers.

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  Maybe I preached on maybe a different whole podcast, I don't know, but I don't see convincing evidence that they weren't really believers. And clearly that's an occasion of God going Old Testament, if you will, on this couple that's at least in the church and if not believers, I mean not that being just hanging out in the church does anything but protects you from God's judgment. But so maybe we have to stop and debate their salvation. I don't know. But to me it's not the only example. You think of one Corinthians 11 versus 28 through 30 where Paul says that you need to stop taking communion Lord supper in an unworthy manner. And then he says, for this reason, many of you have gotten sick and even died. And again, I mean I guess you could open the question of whether or not those folks in the church in Corinth who were taking communion in an unworthy manner.

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  I mean certainly if they were taking communion without being believers, then you'd say, well, that's unworthy. They shouldn't have been there in the first place. But it seems like Paul would be addressing that issue if that were the case that, hey, y'all aren't even supposed to be taking communion. But instead what he says is you're rushing to take it and you're getting drunk before everybody even shows up for the meal. And so it doesn't seem like he's saying you're not believers. It seems like again, this is a case of these are believers who are experiencing God's judgment and punishment for this specific sin of partaking, of communion in an unworthy manner. Beyond that, you get plenty of, I think lots of warnings throughout scripture about this kind of thing. I mean, you think of the book of Hebrews in particular, lots and lots of warnings of if God punished them, the Old Testament in these kinds of ways in the book of numbers, how much more, more is he going to punish us? Hebrews two, three, if we now reject not just God the Father, but his son Jesus and salvation, this even greater salvation or God as a consuming fire. I mean you still have a lot of that kind of

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  Language,

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  Language of, and specifically in chapter seven of God's discipline. And you will hear Christians try and sort of parse words and talk about God no longer judging or punishing sin post Jesus for Christians. But now he disciplines us. And personally I think you could make the case. There's even problems with trying to parse that out. I mean, you're the one in all the Greek classes now.

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  You're a Greek

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  Just as far as the language that's being used there. I mean Hebrews seven really is the kind of classic text on that where the author says, Hey, God disciplines the child he loves.

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  If he didn't discipline, you wouldn't be children and you'd be bastards. But you all discipline your own kids. You love how much more so God, your heavenly Father in his perfect love for you, he disciplines. But then there's lots of sort of synonymous verbs used there with Pao, the discipline chastising and I mean literally the Greek word used the A means to s scourge with a rod. And so I mean if you call it what you want, to me that's punishment that is like corporal punishment that is being used in the context of clearly believers. In that case, he's saying he does it because you are believers, because you're his children, because he loves you, he's going to whoop you

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  And for the purpose of their holiness, that's part of the whole thing. The issue with someone like what Pat Robinson's doing is they're misunderstanding much of the office of the prophets. The prophets are primarily covenantal enforcers. They're not primarily there to decry the nations, the wicked nations. Not to say that they don't do that as well, but they do that secondarily to call God's people who are being unfaithful back to covenantal faithfulness. So if we were to read through a book like numbers, the first of those that we would then point the finger towards and say, you need to be holy or this bad thing is happening because of your wickedness. It's not a city like New Orleans because of moral depravity. It would be what are the problems are existing in the church because of the church's unrighteousness and then moving out into

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  Nation? Well, I was going to say a much better correlation, biblically speaking would be Sodom and Gomorrah, less of what's going on here in the plagues. And I think it's what you have is a little bit of God's justice in the old covenant. And then what changes because of Jesus in the old covenant, particularly the mosaic covenant where they are operating Israel as a theocratic nation where God's rule was direct and obedience and disobedience had immediate consequences. Coors rebellion, God's judgment affirms Moses's authority. Numbers 21, the fire serpent a response to the people's grumbling numbers 25 judgment on idolatry and immorality, that these are not arbitrary, they're covenantal grounded, that Israel had agreed to following these. This is what God says. If you obey, there will be blessings if you disobey, there'll be curses, which included earthly national, nationwide, Israelite consequences for obedience or disobedience. That's Deuteronomy 28. When then you have Jesus coming, he fulfills the mosaic, covenant inaugurates the new covenant. This covenant is not tied to the nation state of Israel but is now a spiritual kingdom. You could think some of it in the, okay, well, what does Christ do? He absorbs God's wrath for all who believe in the new covenant era. Judgment is often delayed. You have

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  Second Peter three, nine, God is patient not wishing that Asia parish judgment is now eschatological, ultimate justice will come at Christ return not necessarily through temporal events. And then God still judges, but not always in a visible national or direct ways different in the new covenant versus old covenant era. Doesn't mean that God is passive. Romans one, God gives them over to themselves. But I would argue a different framework where it is not a national event. America is not a Christian nation. So Pat Robertson's declaration of this is God's judgment on America comes from a Christian nationalist perspective, which I would argue is unhelpful. Yeah,

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  That's good. I had a comment on there on number one, your issue on talking about the eschatological judgment. What like Robertson I think is getting right is that God does in fact judge wickedness and there is wickedness to be judged, but judgment belongs to the

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  Lord

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  And it belongs to the Lord ultimately on the last day.

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  And that judgment is going to be given to Christ who has earned the right to actually act as the ultimate and final judge when he returns to judge of living in the dead. So there is a proper inclination there. There's too many other problems in there that are also problematic. And I was going back to just thinking about how this whole redemptive historical issue with numbers, at times it seems really severe, like God's judgment upon his people and Cora's rebellion or the snakes and whatever else. But then I get to thinking if he does not punish them in these moments and restore them back to faithfulness, they don't get into the land. If they don't get into the land, they don't set up the monarchy. If they don't set up the monarchy, the kingdom doesn't divide. Kingdom doesn't divide the exile and return doesn't come. If that doesn't happen, then Christ doesn't come either. So having that framework that he's keeping them on track because we have the benefit of seeing that the story is ultimately heading towards Jesus, he keeps them in line along the way so that the redemptive historical story comes to fulfillment. Now, that's not to say he couldn't have found some other way to do it, but in his wisdom, he is wisdom. He chooses this path by which to make that happen.

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  Yeah, I mean, the only other thing that I do think needs to be said, to play devil's advocate a little bit is like you said, Austin, totally agree. 90 plus percent of the sort of reproving prophecy in the Old Testament, let's say, is aimed at Israel. But in most of those, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, equi, Daniel, I mean, you can go down the list and I mean the book of Jonah is entirely to this pagan, gentile nation of Assyria. But in all those others, you have at least a couple chapters, in some cases, as many as eight to 10 chapters carved out dedicated to woe to you tire, Syria, woe to you, Babylon and Persian, and they go down the list. And so I do think it, while America, let's say in sticking with Katrina is not God's chosen nation, obviously in the way that probably Pat Robertson and many others, many others

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  Believe,

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  And Israel was, and the church today is, yeah, God's judgment is not reserved just for, I mean, judgment begins in the house of the Lord, the Bible says, but it doesn't end there. And I mean, I think it's very clear from the Old Testament on everybody's getting their comeuppance and that God uses Babylon to judge his people and take them into exile, but he's very clear. And then when your 70 years are complete babylon's their judgment. So it's like, I think if we want to draw principles for that for us today, I think you can make the argument. On the one hand, you could say that, I don't know that it would be an overstatement to say that any sort of suffering and affliction that occurs today, on the one hand, you can say, we deserve all of it, we get and more, right? We all deserve to be in hell. And so we deserve way worse than Katrina or COVID or AIDS or whatever the sort of catastrophe of the day may happen to beat tornadoes this past

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  Every day.

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  I mean, St. Louis, we must day must be guilty of some kind of crazy sin in West County, St. Louis. We've had I think four tornadoes in the last six months. Good Lord, relent, we repent. Let's repent. But anyway, I think you could look at all that and you could say, we deserve it. And I think it should remind us every time we encounter any kind of suffering to a certain extent of just how gracious, I mean, I think about that every time I get sick. Like Pestilent, that's a big one in the Bible, right? Pests. It is Like every time I get sick, I'm like, I deserve this all the

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  Time.

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  I deserve to feel like this and worse and hell, people in hell are going to be suffering worse than this when I'm throwing up. Can't stop 24 hours. I just think, and I also, anyway, but I think that we should put suffering in that right perspective, and it helps remind us of, again, just how gracious God is to us, the other 99 plus percent of the time that we're not constantly experiencing tornadoes, stomach bugs and COVID and whatever else, and God is more than justified when those things. But yeah, to come back to it, I think we've all already said the problem is just when we try and try and claim access to the mind of God, perfect

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  Authority

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  And drawing those straight lines, connecting the dots, where really I think all we can really do is connect the two big dots. At a high level, God punishes sin because he is just, and there's lots of sin around here to be punished, and it's amazing that he overlooks and relents as much as he does. Like David says, if any of us had to endure what we really deserved, who could stand if God truly judged me according to my sins, who could stand? So anyway, I don't know what more you guys want to add to this one. Is that exhausted?

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  Thanks for joining us back to you, host that.

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  Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Ask the Pastors. You can ask your questions on our website at www.westhillsstl.org or weekly at the info bar at West Hills Church. You'll not be joining us next week for a podcast. We got Memorial because we're celebrating holidays together. We

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  Got to figure out when we're going to take our break for the summer. We'll let you know,

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  But keep submitting those questions and we will see you next time.