Angela Heck [00:03]
Hi, and welcome to the Ask the Pastors podcast, where pastors here at West Hills Church answer your questions for the benefit of the church. My name is Angela. I’m your host, and I’m joined here today by Pastor Will.
Will DuVal [00:14]
What up, y’all?
Angela Heck [00:15]
And Pastor Thad.
Thad Yessa [00:16]
Hey, everyone.
Angela Heck [00:18]
Today, they will be answering the question, what does it look like to keep the fifth commandment as an adult? In a time when approximately 15% of adults say they’ve gone no-contact with their parents, what does it look like to honor parents, especially if you don’t find them honorable? What does honoring actually mean, and how can it be balanced with boundaries and independence?
Will DuVal [00:41]
It’s a great question. Thad, you want to go first?
Angela Heck [00:46]
No pressure.
Thad Yessa [00:48]
No. Yeah.
Will DuVal [00:48]
It’s not a laughing matter, Thad.
Thad Yessa [00:50]
I know it’s not. It just I When I get
Will DuVal [00:52]
I was just kidding. No, it’s a very serious question and a very good question. Yeah.
Thad Yessa [00:55]
It’s a It’s a great question. No, I’m laughing. And when I get the cameras up and running, everyone will get to see How I look like I’m about to dive in and answer it. And then, I’m like, why don’t you go for it?
Will DuVal [01:00]
Because I always
Thad Yessa [01:06]
Yeah. No, so I I’d like to start. I’m going to read for us probably what is what are familiar verses to us addressing this: Exodus 20:12, “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.”
Will DuVal [01:28]
It’s the first commandment with a promise.
Thad Yessa [01:30]
It is the first commandment with a promise.
Will DuVal [01:32]
Did I just steal your thunder from the New Testament?
Thad Yessa [01:34]
Ephesians 6:1-3 and Deuteronomy 5:16 it is the other: “that it may go well with you, and in the land that the Lord is giving you.”
Will DuVal [01:45]
Also, the first horizontal commandment. If you think the first four are vertical commandments, our relationship with God, the next six are horizontal, our relationship with one another is human to human. I mean, he starts God starts with the parents, the parental relationship and and the parent to child relationship being arguably the foundation, the most the most important, arguably. Anyway.
Thad Yessa [02:12]
With this question, they submitted some statistics, and I’ve just got a few more just to further paint a picture for what’s going on based on actual surveys. And that research I found wasn’t 15%, it was 16% of all of those polled found that adults found 38% estranged from immediate family members and then 16% from parents specifically, and then 10% of all that were surveyed were from a child. And as further data goes that with the estrangement, 70% of estranged parents would consider reconciling with their child, but only 35% of estranged adult children would say the same about their parents, that it’s the lowest willingness of any family relationship that’s membered of of a desire for any sort of reconciliation of the relationship. And so this is an ongoing big kind of trend. I I can think for myself the number of friends or or even just acquaintances that I know that would say, “Oh, we’ve completely cut parents out of our lives.” And the number just continues to grow from that. And so again, I you know, I laughed at at the beginning at Will’s throwing the ball to me. But to just really paint a a sobering picture of what is going on in in society, and so again, I I think this is a a question that is going to become even more prevalent for us in as a society and culture continues to move towards a self focus. And I’m not saying that anyone who who has done any boundary setting or anything like that has done anything wrong, but we as a society continue to grow more inward-focused and then set boundaries up for, “Well, this is my my benefit. This is for me. It’s all about me, so I’m setting up a boundary.” And again, boundaries aren’t bad. Boundaries are good.
Will DuVal [04:30]
I think that’s a good just to jump in quickly, cuz I was going to ask the kind of follow-up aside question quickly about and maybe it’s not quick. It’s a bigger topic, but you know, of just why do you think that is? Why do you think it is that there is this growing trend? And I think you just kind of tipped your hat on it, which I would agree to a large extent with that that you know, the more the world tells you, you know, to to follow your heart, to do what makes you happy, and and all that kind of thing. Like well, as soon as my parents don’t make me happy or, you know, my siblings or fill-in-the-blank of whatever relationship it is that you’ve cut out, and as soon as this person or even maybe maybe they bring me some happiness, but more unhappiness than happiness at times or whatever or it’s not worth the risk, it’s like what amount of happiness do you have to bring to merit keeping you in my life? Yeah, I I think that’s a huge. Now, I I think we and you did and I think we should be fair and and and present it from the flip side as well that I think there there are definitely I think we’d agree that there are there are times and occasions and and and certain you know relationships and dynamics where I for one, you know, believe that it it would be totally not just appropriate, but healthy. You know, as sad as it is to to think about, I think that there are yeah situations, parental or otherwise relationships where the healthiest and and and actually the godliest and and frankly most honoring to go to the the question for the day of them and others and God is is to actually not have a relationship or at least as you said, to to have some serious boundaries within that relationship. But but yeah, I mean I can not just imagine, I can I could explain for you because I’ve seen it in certain relationships where, you know, and and I’ve counseled it, rarely, but I’ve counseled it where I have have told folk, you know, based on what you’re telling me, if that’s true, like I would say this is this is not somebody that you need to, you know, have have in your life, and And so, again, I I mean I take that very seriously because of the fifth commandment and because, frankly, of all the commandments and of all that God says about, you know, loving and serving and and and supporting and and encouraging one another. And all the various commands of Scripture that just aren’t aren’t going to be possible to to really experience the fullness of what God wants for us in relationships when you cut someone out of your life, obviously. But but but at the same time, you know, relationships are a two-way street, and, you know, all you can do is is, you know, do your best to to to be the kind of person that is healthy and life-giving for others to be in relationship with. And, you know, if they can’t at a certain point in time, if folks aren’t reciprocating that, and not only that, but if they are if if if they’re they’re truly people that are and I know again this is another word that gets way overused these days, but, you know, a toxic person who’s, you know, actually makes those around them worse and drags them down and and all of that, then yeah, I think there there can be circumstances where that calls for, you know, some serious guard rails put up in in relationships. So, but but I do think you’re right. I guess another another way of maybe asking the question or nuancing it would be to say, “Okay, of the 15 to 16% of parent-child relationships that are now no-contact, one interesting question would be to know, you know, what percentage of them was the child cutting off the relationship versus the parent? That would be an interesting just, I don’t know, data point. And but then another one and this would be a purely speculative question, anecdotally based on the the the no-contact relationships that I know of, that you know of, and and whatever, like if 15% of of parent-child relationships now in adulthood are estranged, I don’t know, what what percentage of those would would we estimate that we as pastors that if if those were people at our church, and they explained the ins and outs of the relationship to us, what percentage of them would we say, “Yeah, I think that’s that’s God’s will for your life. Like I think I think that that’s a good, godly decision that that you should have cut your parents out of your or that you should have cut your kids out of your life versus what percentage of them are are are are outside of God’s will in making that kind of a decision. You know what I’m saying?
Thad Yessa [09:50]
Yeah.
Will DuVal [09:51]
I mean, this would be purely
Thad Yessa [09:52]
Do you want me to speculate?
Will DuVal [09:53]
Yeah. I mean, purely speculative question. I because my gut would be the majority are overreacting. That the majority, as you said, suggested in in in our culture today, are are being too selfish in relationships and are looking to have my needs and and and whatever met. And have lost the art and skill of compromise and of recognizing that it’s not all about you, and, you know, just because someone disagrees with you or voted for someone different than you or whatever doesn’t make them a toxic person. It just makes them a different person. And not everyone has to look like you and think and feel and believe and affirm everything that you do. And I don’t know, what would you say?
Thad Yessa [10:39]
No, I I’d probably 60, 70%.
Will DuVal [10:47]
Yeah, I was thinking maybe 2/3 of them were overreacting.
Thad Yessa [10:48]
Something like that. And, you know, if this is, you know, a a real hypothetical, I’d also would love to ask. And again, if if they’re coming to us on the back end, they’ve probably haven’t talked to a pastor before, but like, “Hey, who who did you talk to about this before coming to that conclusion?” One,
Will DuVal [11:08]
A secular non-Christian therapist.
Thad Yessa [11:11]
who who has Your best friend who’s just going to tell you to do whatever you want all the time.
Will DuVal [11:12]
Your best friend who’s just going to tell you to do whatever you want all the time.
Thad Yessa [11:14]
Yep. An incentive to, “Yep, that’s what you want to hear,” or to get you to to keep coming back again. I’m not I’m not against therapy and anything, but there there’s a large study that’s been showing that people aren’t getting better, and more and more people are going and seeing therapists, and they just keep coming back. And so there’s an there can be an incentive to keep someone coming back. And so if I say like, “Hey, yeah, you need to cut your parents off. We need to continue to unpack that without any real path forward.” Like again, I I’ve just got more questions for those individuals. But yeah, I’d probably say 2/3 as well of overreactive, or you know, there’s probably some other steps you could have taken along the way before just going no-contact entirely. Which is sad. And and hopefully, again, this will be again helpful conversation, and hopefully, we’ll have some helpful conversations with individuals after. Someone’s asking this question in our church, and so maybe there’ll be some some some further conversations with that.
Will DuVal [12:17]
So let’s transition back to her question specifically about, okay, let’s assume that this is maybe it is even just a minority like the 1/3 of all estranged parent-child relationships where where it is called for. You know, it’s valid, you know, that let’s say it’s they’ve they’ve one of those minority where they’ve come and talk to me as, “Hey, I’ve tried this. I’ve tried this. I’ve done this for years. You know, I just keep getting whether it’s verbally abused or whether it’s neglected or whether it’s, you know, whatever emotionally, yeah gaslit or whatever it might be the the kind of again toxic behavior, but it’s let’s let’s assume that it’s one of those cases where where where we’d say, “Yeah, actually, I think it’s it’s maybe best to not be in a relationship, at least not for right now.” I almost kind of wonder if, you know, there’s a parallel or a corollary to to be made to 1 Corinthians 5 and where Paul talks about, you know, the the guy in the church in Corinth who’s been sleeping with his stepmother, and Paul says, you know, “What are y’all doing?” And he says, you know, “Next time you’re together, put him outside the church, hand him over to Satan, and let Satan work him over. And, you know, pray for him that, you know, after Satan’s had his way with him, and this guy feels the the weight of being outside of the grace of of Christian community and being handed over to Satan that he’ll wake up. You know, it’ll be like a spiritual wake-up call, and and he’ll he’ll repent and and find true godly repentance, come back, and and, you know, be be purified and sanctified through that. I do wonder if there’s things can be kind of a parallel with that where there again are cases where that’s called for in in a relationship whether Yeah. I mean, that’s not even necessarily parenting, but just in any kind of relationship where it’s like, you know what, I think we need a break here. And and again, I know there’s a bit of a formal church discipline aspect to it in 1 Corinthians 5. So, all of that aside, though, the similar principle where it’s like, “Hey, you know, relationships are supposed to Just like church, it’s supposed to be a grace that God brings into our lives and and something good. But, sometimes, the you know the the being cut off from that that grace and that gift can can be a needed wake-up call for someone who’s either taking it for granted or abusing it or, you know, whatever the case may be. So, all that to say, if we if we assume that there’s a category of relationships and parental relationships where that’s possible that that estrangement is the the necessary evil, the least bad option or whatever. Like what would it mean for this person in our church who’s asking the And maybe they’re not asking it for themselves personally, they’re asking it on behalf of someone else. But what would it mean
Thad Yessa [15:28]
Conversations they’re having, I imagine.
Will DuVal [15:30]
Yeah. With another friend. Yeah. What would it mean for them, you know, to give counsel about how do how do we as Christians honor a parent who we’re potentially even estranged from? I guess that’s one question, and then another even short of the estrangement thing is just the general, how do we honor dishonorable parents? You know, we are called to to honor them biblically. I think of like even the corollary with Romans 13 and 1 Peter 3 where, you know, Paul and Peter call us to honor the emperor. I mean, they’re writing this in the time of Nero, in the like 60s AD in in the Roman Empire where it’s like you got arguably I mean, you think Trump is bad, you got arguably the most dishonorable like, you know, not worthy of honor, not worthy of respect. Nero’s lighting Christians on fire at his dinner dinner parties for fun, for for giggles, and he they’re saying honor that guy, you know, not because he’s honorable, but because, Romans 13, God is sovereign over everything, and if if he’s the the emperor, that didn’t happen by mistake. God put him in that place for a reason. I might not know what the reason is, but he’s got Nero as the emperor for some reason. And so even if I don’t find anything honorable about him as a as a man, there there’s honor to be given to his position, to his authority. I mean, you you find this clearly in Scripture, I think, and that’s part of what I think is going on there in the fifth commandment, right, is with honor your parents. Is and and the way the reason that God can say that regardless of who your parents is, like he he doesn’t say honor your honorable parents, he doesn’t say honor them if they dah dah dah, it’s honor your parents. Well, how can he Well, it’s because of that office, you know, and and in God’s Word, I mean, there is a real uh which in our anti-institutional day and age that we live in in America, where it’s like, you know, “No, you got to prove yourself and then I’ll respect you.” It’s like we we this is kind of foreign to us, but like the idea that just by virtue of having given birth to you, just by virtue of, you know, they didn’t it wouldn’t even a democracy, Nero didn’t get voted in, like it was just It was just the position, and it was the title, and and he had it. And and God says just by virtue of this this formal positional authority that’s been placed over you in your life, you are beholden to, you are obligated to to show honor. I guess maybe a first I’ve I’ve been talking a while. I’ll stop. But what What does that even mean? What does it even mean to honor? I think respect is a synonym. Not sure how far it gets us. It’s true. It means respect. But like what does that mean? Does it mean to obey with within parameters, or always? Or does it mean to to like, to look up to? Does it mean to I don’t know. I won’t speculate. What what does it mean to honor?
Thad Yessa [18:55]
Yeah, I’ll get there in just a second. I think what’s important to know is that when this command is first given with the Ten Commandments, there is no caveat given on on a parameter of when this starts and when this stops. Or I guess it does start, if you have a father or mother, you are to honor them.
Will DuVal [19:16]
You’re saying like honor them until you’re out of the home?
Thad Yessa [19:18]
Yeah, it doesn’t say. Whereas, Paul, he adds, you know, “Children, obey your parents,” and so that favorite verse of of all parents of, “Listen, Paul wrote it. God told Paul to write it, so children should obey their parents.” So, one, there’s no caveat there. As I was doing a little research, again, super familiar with the Ten Commandments, heard them for a long time, an argument made that this was written specifically not just to children, but also to adults. That this commandment was written to for adults because it sits among commandments about adult sin, idol, murder, false witness. That it promises a a long life pointed towards theoretically aging parents. And so I I think one one thing to know that it does not seem to indicate that this is merely just for young children, that it ends once you once you exit the home. So, I I think that’s just an important note on it. As well if I one more like just cultural note aside as an aside of when we look at, you know, the biblical texts and what’s going on there of like family units like they stayed together, whereas now we in our society, we tend to go grow further and further apart. We don’t live with our parents or our grandparents. And so, again, that’s that’s a different context than what we’re used to here, but it’s important, I think, to to note that that’s typically what would go on in this. And so if I could differentiate a little bit between obedience and honoring, I would say obedience is following after direction of of parents. Let’s say a command that is given by parents, they say, “I want you to clean your room.” Obedience says, “Yes, I will go and clean my room.” I think that is a way in which we we can honor our parents, but that’s not the the extent of it. That’s more obedience versus versus honoring. I would say honor, I I’d put it along the the same language of sorts of glory of like there’s a certain weight to it, a certain respect, a certain certain disposition and thinking towards. And so as far as how is it that I honor parents, and so I I think with also this these verses, like there’s no caveat of children honor by dishonoring if. It says always honor, so it’s again just not a not a thing that seems to to end at all. So, if I was to say here’s how I would Is that helpful? Am I Am I making sense before I go on from what I think honor is to what it could actually look like in a if there’s a parent of a dishonorable acting in a dishonorable way, how it is that we honor them?
Will DuVal [22:18]
Got Questions defines it as, “Honoring your father and mother is being respectful in word and action and having an inward attitude of esteem for their position. The Greek word for honor means to revere, prize, and value. Honor is giving respect not only for merit, but also for rank.” That’s what we talked about, you know, the office, the the position God has placed them in in your life. “For example, some Americans may disagree with the president’s decisions, but they should still respect his position as leader of their country.” Kind of mentioned that. So, like like you said, “Children of all ages should honor their parents, regardless of whether or not they deserve it or honorable.” So,
Thad Yessa [23:02]
And and so I I think with that framework in mind and also with our understanding of the human condition that we are all sinners, and we are all affected by sin. And and to again, I say that not to justify or make light of anything that has happened in anyone’s situation, but we should also I think in being able to honor parents be able to look at them and find something that is, even if they have acted perhaps the majority of your life in interaction with them in dishonorable ways, what is a way in which we we can honor them by, again, thinking on how have I seen my mother or or my father act in a honorable way? To not completely erase all of the shared history and shared relationship to only focus in on these are all the bad things. Again, not to make light of the bad things, not to say you can only talk well to another, “Oh, yes. I just had the greatest parents ever,” when that’s not actually true. I’m not saying to lie, but I think one way in which is to remember that there were some things that were honorable about them. I think a a way to honor dishonorable parents is, depending on the the specifics of the circumstances, as they age, which, again, is in our society, it’s we really don’t necessarily bring people to come live with us and care for us, but I think a way to to honor dishonorable parents who who are aging is finding a way to, again, care well to to advocate on on their behalf of like, even though things were were not good, and maybe we’ve not even had contact for a while or the relationship is really strange of like, how is it that with an aging parent, I can seek to honor them by finding a way for them to have some sort of quality of life, even if that means a a certain maybe financial strain or or difficulty? So, I think that’s one way. I think of honoring our parents by not exaggerating the dishonorable things, of only thinking only thinking and speaking of things in truth and not further exaggerating how bad things really were. And again, I know we’ve talked about like for those who are legitimate, but some of my friends who who have have separated and and gone no-contact with their parents talk about how difficult things were. Not that I would say that I know everything about their lives, but knowing their parents even now into adulthood and thinking, “I I have I have a hard time of of hearing you say that and and because I actually know your parents, and that it was actually that bad.” So, I think the way we honor is we we speak, again, truthfully and not make lightly, but truthfully about what did and did not happen, what difficulties there were and there weren’t, and not seek to exaggerate them more than what had actually happened.
Will DuVal [26:25]
Yeah, because we live in a society that is increasingly enthralled with this culture of victimhood where, you know, the the the more marginalized and you know, tough you’ve had it, the more everybody’s going to come around you and and celebrate you. And that’s not to say that we shouldn’t honor and love and care for those who have had tough things happen to them in their life. It’s just to say when when there is a a culture of that kind of I mean, this is a whole another conversation about kind of the zeitgeist that we’re living in now, and intersectionality and you know, the like who’s again who’s had it toughest, and that’s who gets to like have who gets heard and and whatever is that then it it incentivizes people to yeah, to play the victim, to aspire to victimhood, to to potentially even choose seek out situations where, you know, they can repeat that narrative for the sake of gaining social status. You know, “I’ve been abused by this many boyfriends, and so, you know, you’d better really listen to me.” I don’t know, it’s just people, like you said, there’s there are ways of overcompensating with the kind of care that we give and show that actually reward bad behavior and the toleration of bad behavior and things like that.
Angela Heck [28:23]
Can I ask I feel like we’ve been kind of dancing around it, you all have been, I haven’t said anything. But like what the line is between dishonorable and a parent worthy of being estranged from? Cuz I think those are the two like categories.
Will DuVal [28:39]
You’re saying there there are some parents that aren’t particularly honorable, but that, you know, have not sinned so egregiously that merit someone going no-contact with and and and choosing estrangement.
Angela Heck [28:44]
Yeah.
Will DuVal [28:56]
And, yeah, the difference or like how could someone discern between the two?
Angela Heck [28:57]
And yeah, the difference or like how could someone discern between the two? I know it’s also very situational, but
Will DuVal [29:01]
Boy, it is very situational. I would be reticent to to to draw too many hard-and-fast rules, personally. I think it’s it’s so circumstantial. I think to your earlier point, Thad, I think that’s why God gives the the gift of godly counselors in your life that will tell you not just, you know, what you want to hear whether that or but but yeah, what hopefully, you know, what is true. And but that said, for me, you know, you know, even even any words that we would try labels that we try would try and slap on it. Like, I mean, I could I could say abuse, you know, like a parent that is abusive of their children is grounds for for no contact, you know, for cutting them out of your life. But I’m not sure that we’ve actually done anything to to to clarify the question or the problem, right, because one man’s abuse is another man’s or another child’s, you know, whatever. Yeah, so we have to do more. We have to then define, or at least describe, what constitutes abuse. You know, so again, I think it’s so situational. I think you know, can it can it be dependent on the the particular person? Can it be subjective enough that it’s per dependent on the particular person and the needs of that person? I mean, I I think I would I would probably be try and seek to be, you know, understanding enough, compassionate enough, whatever, that that I would I would say yes. In other words, you know, that that the same behavior from one parent toward one child might just be, you know, not good and sinful and needs to be called out, and, you know, and and and a boundary drawn, and a confrontation made, and whatever. But then based on the particularities of the relationship and and that child and their limitations in in in being able to confront and what and the past history of the relationship leading up to that and whatever, like could that exact same instigating behavior or or action or or speech or whatever from from a different parent toward a different child actually be grounds for, “Okay, you know, I have to cut you out of my life?” I think so. And so that’s where I think it’s just to me, I think it’s it’s not going to be a satisfying answer, but I I think it’s so situational and so person-to-person, relationship-to-relationship. You know, I think it’s yeah. I think you I I I want to be sympathetic enough to factor in things like mental health and, you know, a person’s resilience versus fragility, and, you know, I mean, I I think ideally, we should all be striving for more resilience. And, you know, how many times does Scripture call us to bear with one another in love, and to seek, you know, as much as possible as it depends on us to live at peace with one another? You know, not just those who are honorable, but to live at peace with all people. And so, you know, again that that that might require in some relationships bearing with and swallowing a lot of just crap, you know, really. I mean, you know, just bad less than Christian speech, less than Christian behavior and and conduct, and and and interaction from, yeah, whether it’s a parent, child, sibling, friend, whatever it is. But, you know, again, that that’s that’s the calling. I mean, that’s that’s what we ought to be striving for is Christlikeness, and how much did Christ put up with? You know, like, well, just look at the cross. I mean, so so Jesus, thank God that Jesus didn’t go no-contact with us and, you know, cut cut us completely out of his life just because we were toxic, because we are beyond the pale of toxic, all of us in our sin, and yet he endured out of love. So, I mean, that But that, again, he’s Jesus, we’re not. I’m not I’m not saying that to Don’t hear me saying like, you know, “Go and go back to your abusive husband or or father or, you know, whatever.” But, do you want to say anything more specific on Angela’s question?
Thad Yessa [34:09]
Yeah, I mean, I’d I’d wholly agree that it it’s probably a case-by-case basis of like there’s got to be a lot of context and a lot of questions and things asked. And, you know, there there’s a lot of also different circumstances and and a lot of other things to ask. Like I can think of like if I was to say like topics or areas of which, you know, someone’s either set a boundary or gone no-contact or anywhere within the spectrum. Parents just overly critical, judgmental, harsh in in conversation, different political or religious viewpoints, like things like that. And again, even within those, there’s a huge spectrum of what the the disagreement can be. I think to answer like some of the the honoring, like I think some of the honoring looks like like not taking the bait when an an an overcritical or or judgmental or or difficult parent who who one is controlling like, again, I I think having firm convictions, but also like just not taking the bait. I I think that’s a way in which we we honor our parents by trying to help them to not be dishonorable of giving them a door to perhaps even even act more dishonorably towards us. I you know,
Will DuVal [35:56]
Yeah, I think confronting. Confronting when necessary. Yeah, holding holding a boundary, setting a boundary, yeah, all of that. And then again, if if there’s a repeated pattern of of a violation of that boundary and disrespect on their part or whatever and not a a lack of willingness to, you know, to show mutual respect in in the relationship in that way, then you know there could come a point at which again, cutting them out of your life at least temporarily. Like that that all of that can be the most honorable thing you can do. Because I don’t think to you know to make the argument for, I I don’t think that you are honoring a parent or a spouse or a child or a friend or a fill-in-the-blank, you’re not honoring them by allowing or their position in your life of authority or otherwise. You’re not You’re not being honoring by allowing them to or or enabling, facilitating, helping, aiding them in the cause of sin. You know, that whatever honor whatever it means to show honor, it cannot mean propping up sin. So, yeah, just to agree with you on that.
Thad Yessa [37:16]
You know, what what the what another thing is like that makes the the question you post, Angela, hard is like, is there any sort of repentance, remorse? Is this a continual, repeated pattern of behavior where like there’s only sorrow given when like, “Hey, I need to set up another.” “Well, I’m just so sorry.” And, you know, a a question to to pose to the individual who’s contemplating these things like, “Am I am I doing this for my protection or my family’s protection? Am I doing this as punishment? Cuz I didn’t like something my parents did, so I’m going to punish them by cutting off contact or removing the grandchildren from the situation? Like why does this boundary exist? And is there also like a an end goal with it and not a not a moving target?” I think I think often times in relationships where, again, when wrong has happened, sometimes we we tend to I I can tend to like move move the target, move the goal of where like, “Well, if just this happens, then I can.” No, and and I don’t think that’s actually very Christian of us where, again, there there’s a difference between forgiving someone and and and a complete restoration of the relationship as though you know nothing has ever happened. I think that’s a important dynamic. Have have I forgiven? Have I gone through efforts to to seek to restore? Has the parent gone through efforts to seek to restore? I think one way of honoring our parents is if they come in genuine repentance and wanting to grow of like a way to honor them is is to seek to, again, I think move towards them in restoring. And again, every situation’s different about what that looks like depending on how long there’s been a a cutoff relationship or a boundary set, and and again, working towards that. But I think a way of like thinking thinking the best, bearing with of like, “Well, we can move towards this together.” That’s a way in which we can honorable even if they’re honor them even if there’s been dishonorable actions along the way.
Will DuVal [39:35]
If I can toss out just a couple of other thoughts, principles on this, I’m rereading the question here, you know, “What does it look like to honor parents, especially if you don’t find them honorable?” It just that that contrast just brought to mind for me if I can paraphrase Jesus in Matthew 5, where Jesus talking about not not honoring, but love. And I mean, very similar, related concept anyway. But you know, in Matthew 5, Jesus says, “Look, you’ve heard it said love your friends, you know, hate your enemies or or whatever.” He said, “You know, no. I I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” And then he says, you know, “Because what benefit is it to you if you love those who love you? I mean, the Gentiles and tax collectors do that. There There is absolutely nothing remarkable about loving people who who love you and and loving people who are lovable.” Like everybody does that. And so if I can paraphrase Jesus there to just say like, you know, it’s not It’s not impressive for you to honor honorable parents. Like, of course, if they’re honorable, everyone’s going to honor them. Like, what makes it a commandment, and what makes it tough is like that you can honor them even when you’re finding it particularly hard. I don’t find your your your behavior right now to be particularly honorable, you know, and and and maybe it’s not even just this one disagreement we’re having in this one situation. Like maybe there’s a pattern, and maybe like I would categorically say you are dishonorable people, and yet I’m going I’m going to choose to honor you, not because you’re honorable, but because God has called me to do that. And and so, I think I think, you know, what it means to honor then, the verb, and then honorable, the adjective, what it means to honor is is more about says more about the honorer, the person who’s who’s showing the honor, than it does about the honoree, the person who’s being honored. Maybe that goes without saying. But that’s that’s one principle I want to throw out.
Thad Yessa [41:51]
As you as you said that, I I thought of the story of Noah and his drunkenness, and Ham finds him and goes and gets his his brothers. And the other two brothers go, and they they cover Noah.
Will DuVal [42:04]
Noah has done something dishonorable. He’s gotten trashed, but you know, they are still showing honor. We’re not going to dishonor him by looking, you know, laughing at his naked old body, or whatever Ham did that was bad. Kind of unclear in that passage. That’s a whole nother. But
Thad Yessa [42:24]
What I was saying, they they acted honorable when Noah is clearly dishonorable.
Will DuVal [42:25]
Yeah. Sure. That’s that’s good. That’s a good a good example. Another one just a principle that I want to throw out to maybe be the counterbalance to something you said, which is also true, but again, all of Scripture is, you know, there’s tension and a counterbalance. So, Thad, you mentioned the principle of well, just the point that Exodus 20:13 doesn’t say honor your father and mother until you’re 18 and then, you know, screw them, do whatever you want. The the flip side to that, though, that I think for especially our question asker, because the question asker does specifically say, “What does it look like to to keep the fifth commandment as an adult?” So, I I maybe we I don’t know, should have started this as like the the the first question or first to to earlier than 45 minutes in to to clarify the answer here. I believe, is it fair to true, biblical to say that what it looks like to keep the fifth commandment, even though the fifth commandment isn’t only for children, to your point, however, I do think that what it looks like to to keep the fifth commandment as a child is and may be different than what it looks like as an adult, and certainly as a married adult. So, what I mean by that is when I do premarital counseling with couples, you know, we’ve got to balance the fifth commandment with Genesis 2, for instance, Genesis 2:24, because in Genesis 2:24, God says, you know, “It wasn’t good that man should be alone,” verse 18. Skipping ahead to verse 24, and so God, you know, created Eve from Adam’s rib, gave him the two, and then he says, you know, “The two shall become one flesh, and, you know, the husband will leave his father and mother and cling to his wife.” And you know, the point I think the the the principle being laid out here for us is is really, yeah, the the the idea of the nuclear family unit. And, you know, when and, of course, we we honor this, we recognize this, and like I just officiated a wedding for Connor McGuire and Alena Mopheen, oh, now artist formerly known as Alena Mopheen, now Elena McGuire, because they got married 2 days ago, and 3 days ago. And she left and and cleft with her husband, and he with her. And, you know, we honor this and and and symbolize this in the even in the ceremony, right, when the father, traditionally. Right? A lot of people, you know, that’s like back when women were dowry, and we’re too enlightened, and we’re not going to do that anymore. But I mean, I think the biblical case for it is, look, you know, no. This is about symbolizing what family you belong to. Like, yeah, when when her father and her mother give this woman to this man in marriage, you know, they’re still her father and her mother, but they are not her immediate family anymore. I mean, she is leaving that immediate family to cleave and to join and to form to actually form a new immediate family. This new married couple, the two are becoming one flesh. They’re becoming a new family unit. And anyway, I say all that to say when when we go through this in premarital counseling, we talk about, “Hey,” I have a whole kind of quiz assessment thing that I have them do about multiple different things. One of them is your kind of family relationships, family of origin, and relating, and all that. How close were you, are you, are you going to be, whatever. Issues there, we talk through. But part of that is making sure that they both recognize that, you know, whatever kind of formal authority that your parents had on you as a as a child, as an unmarried child, you know, whether you’re you’re you’re 18, and you’re going straight from living under their roof to getting married, or whether there was typically nowadays, you know, an interim period of like maybe you’re 25, maybe you’re 35 or whatever, and you’ve been living in this weird kind of place of, “Okay, I’m I’m a I’m a 27-year-old, you know, not living under the roof anymore, kind of doing my own thing, but also that’s still my family because, I mean, I live by myself. And like if that’s not my family, I don’t know where my family is. It’s like the these are my parents, this is my family.” Anyway, that that dynamic, that relationship, I think, changes dramatically when when you get married, and when now, you know, we are we are one flesh. This is my new immediate family. My parents, love them, honor them, but they’re extended family, and whatever authority they may have had in the past like, “Hey, I’m contemplating a a job change or, you know, whatever.” And like, “I want to ask, you know, the people closest to me who are in my corner, like, what do you think about this?” The point is, now it’s, you know, still absolutely hope you have that kind of relationship with your parents where you go, and you want their input, whatever. It doesn’t matter half as much as what your spouse thinks. That that is your primary relationship, two have become one flesh, that that’s, you know, we got to have each other’s backs. Parents need to understand that. They need to understand, look, if you ever say or do anything that’s going to try and come between and and and sow disunity between me and spouse, that automatically is grounds for like if not no-contact, like some serious boundaries like you you can’t be really in our life if you’re trying to like cause a wedge, drive a wedge between me and my my spouse. So, anyway, we we talk through all that. But all that to say, I think it’s I think it’s fair to say, wouldn’t you say that part of But that that’s all important to factor in to answering this question of keeping the fifth commandment as an adult because because, you know, we’re we’re called not only to honor our parents still, but now we have to honor our spouses, too. And part of what it means to honor my spouse, Polly, is is that she’s she’s the the primary, you know, sounding board, and and we got to be on the same page about stuff, whether or not I’m on the same page with mom or dad or whatever, and they don’t like the decision, or the new car that we bought, or whatever. Like, that’s fine. They don’t have to because they’re not they’re not in the room anymore. They’re not It’s It’s a new family now. And and so, it’s me and her, and we’ve got to I’ve got to honor her first. Is that fair to all true?
Thad Yessa [49:13]
Yeah. No, I tried to, you know, with that’s why it’s not obey. Like it it changes in in that. But also, I Not that you did say this, but there’s also a a spectrum as, you know, it’s it’s the failure to launch syndrome thing that like even if one doesn’t marry, the relationship still should change as as one grows into adulthood and maturity, even if, you know, is still still single. The relationship still changes. But there’s there’s this in between of like not new family, but part of the old family. I think the the love your neighbor principle still applies to all of those categories, but there’s varying degrees of of neighbors in in proximity to to one another. But no, I I’d agree with you that that that, you know, that’s got to be one of the the first priorities, I think, for a a new family unit beginning of, “Hey,” and maybe there needs to be a a a parent counseling for instead of just premarital counseling for for the couple, but also for the parents of like, “Hey, this this is what it should look like for you in doing that.” But an important an important note to add in there.
Will DuVal [50:29]
So I asked ChatGPT, “What does the Bible say about honoring parents who are dishonorable?” And it says,
Thad Yessa [50:37]
The fifth commandment.
Will DuVal [50:39]
I thought this talks a lot about the fifth commandment, but it says we’re commanded to honor our parents, not commanded to approve everything they do, or tolerate their mistreatment, or participate in their sin. We got to hold two truths together. Parents deserve honor because the position God gave them, we talked about that. Parents are still accountable at the same time to God for how they treat their children. Several biblical principles that reconcile the two. So number one: honoring parents is a command, not a reward for good parenting. And they quote the fifth commandment, Exodus 20 verse 12, and that’s very true. Number two: honoring parents does not mean obeying sinful instructions that they give. I think that’s We kind of talked around that, but that’s important. They quote Acts 5:29, where the apostles get locked up for evangelizing, and they say, “Hey, look, beat us if you want, but we got to obey God instead of y’all. We obey God rather than men.” Number three: honoring parents does not mean tolerating abuse. Colossians 3:21 they they quote, “Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.” Ephesians 6:4, “Don’t provoke your children to anger.” Doesn’t talk about abuse specifically, but I think, again, it’s clearly, you know, God through Paul is calling parents parents in effect to honor their children, and so, you know, when your parents are are dishonoring you in in a blatantly like abusive kind of thing, again, honoring does not mean tolerating abuse. And again, we’d we’d have to define those terms, and and maybe it’s maybe that feels too gray or wishy-washy and and whatever, but I just I just see so much of the that word thrown away around, words like toxic and abuse and whatever in cases that I’m like, “Oh, man. You know, I get it. Like you’re you seem very fragile emotionally, but like that thing that your mom said to you, I’m not sure that meets the definition of abuse, and I’m definitely not sure that it’s cause for cutting her out of your life completely.” So, I I worried about that.
Thad Yessa [52:48]
I mean, I mean, on that, oh, we You briefly mentioned, you know, the victim mentality. It’s it’s whoever I Never mind. I’m not going to say it. I get myself in trouble. I’ll take I’ll take I’m going to take it back. I’m not going to go down
Will DuVal [52:57]
Okay.
Thad Yessa [53:01]
That’s an off off-air comment, I believe.
Will DuVal [53:01]
Let me get in trouble by myself. No, okay. Number four: honoring parents does not mean withholding the truth about their behavior. I think that’s an important point. Proverbs 27:5, “Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend.” So, I think, you know, that applies in the parent relationship as as well is like, you know, part of how you honor is you tell the truth, even when the truth is hard for them to hear. Honoring parents doesn’t necessarily mean maintaining a close close relationship, number five. That’s an interesting one. So, yeah, consider this: Proverbs 22:24-25 warns us against close associations with an angry person, because their behavior can influence you. 2 Timothy 3:1-5 describes people characterized by abusive, unloving, unholy behavior, says, “Avoid such people.” So, yeah, that would apply to your parents as well. You don’t have to be best friends with everybody, and all all the things, even in the Christian community, about, you know, seeking to live at peace with one another and love one another, and and bear with and all that doesn’t mean you’re best friends with everybody. You know, like I can let you stay in the church. Maybe it’s not a 1 Corinthians 5, and we got to kick you out of the church situation that egregious, but it’s like that still doesn’t mean that we got to be, you know, best friends. Number six: we should resist responding to dishonorable parents with dishonor of our own. That’s an important one. 1 Peter 3:9, “Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, on the contrary, bless those who who mistreat you.” And that would apply to our parents, you know? And again, it’s yeah, it’s it’s sad. It’s unfortunate that you we would Especially in that parent relationship where of all people, like who should who should love and honor you and respect you, you know, most, your parents should be the ones who who treat you well more than anybody. And yet, there are plenty of situations where that’s just not the case, and where, you know, even as the child, the the the younger, whatever, I have to be more mature here. I have to be the one who who shows honor, even when they’re not. And and so, anyway, I’ll I’ll stop there. But I thought the those good, you know, some good helpful summary kind of principles around what honor is and isn’t from our AI companion.
Angela Heck [55:17]
I think it’s all things you guys already touched on, to be honest.
Thad Yessa [55:21]
Yeah.
Angela Heck [55:22]
Don’t ask ChatGPT if you should estrange from your parents. Seek pastoral counsel.
Will DuVal [55:27]
Yeah. Don’t That’s a thank you. Very good point.
Thad Yessa [55:31]
There was a there was a filter given over the reading of those things.
Will DuVal [55:34]
Yep. Yep. Very good point. Yeah, come ask
Angela Heck [55:38]
If there are any questions of nuance, seek your pastors.
Will DuVal [55:41]
Yeah. Thank you. Well well said.
Angela Heck [55:44]
Okay. Well, that’s it for this week of Ask the Pastors. Thank you so much for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast to make sure you get reminders about all new episodes. If you liked this episode, why not share it with a friend? And leave us a good review. That helps others find our podcast, too. You can submit your own questions for the podcast at westhillsstl.org. Thanks again, and we will catch you next week.