Angela Heck 0:06
Welcome to Ask the Pastors, a segment of the West Hills podcast where you have the opportunity to ask your questions and receive biblically-grounded, pastorally-sensitive answers from our pastoral staff. My name is Angela. I’m your host and one of the Oh, no, I’m not. I’m
Will DuVal 0:20
You’re not one of the pastors.
Angela Heck 0:21
I’m not one of the pastors!
Thad Yessa 0:23
You are one of the staff members.
Angela Heck 0:24
I’m the office manager. I’m just here.
Will DuVal 0:27
A girl can dream.
Angela Heck 0:28
No. Definitely, I’m not dreaming of that.
Will DuVal 0:30
Not if you’re Well, you could be evangelical. We’re talking about what it means. You could be evangelical and be a pastor at some evangelical churches. We’ll get to that. Sorry, go ahead.
Angela Heck 0:39
I’m not interested, but I’m joined by Pastor Will and Pastor Thad.
Thad Yessa 0:43
Hello.
Will DuVal 0:43
Hello.
Angela Heck 0:44
Today we are going to be discussing what is an evangelical and why am I one?
Will DuVal 0:50
So, I thought it might be helpful to obviously start with the first question of defining what is an evangelical before getting to the kind of the case for evangelicalism or, you know, the reasons why we are evangelical. And the context for this, if you’re listening to this recording, I guess we won’t probably post this until Thursday, but I mentioned in a sermon a couple weeks ago I got invited to be a part of a panel discussion at St. Louis Community College entitled, Who Counts as Christian? And so there’s a Roman Catholic priest, a Eastern Orthodox priest, a Lutheran priest, myself, a UMC, UCC pastors. And so representing various Christian denominations and, you know, my sort of I guess, label or title or whatever is is evangelical. I’m like the token evangelical. And so I’ve been, you know, trying to kind of research and prep for this a little bit, and and it’s it’s been interesting, and a little frustrating to maybe I’m searching for the wrong thing. But I keep I keep searching for, you know, the the the internet for not what is an evangelical, because there’s lots on that and I know what I we’re going to talk about this, I know the answer to that. But, but why I am an evangelical, and, you know, what I what I’m looking for is like some of the really intelligent kind of voices in our in our faith tradition saying not just why I’m a Christian, but why I’m this brand of of Christian, and either not many have actually written or spoken on it, or I’m just bad at searching. But anyway, I have found a fair amount of kind of evangelical versus progressive Christian debates, or evangelical versus Roman Catholic debate, or or this or that. But there there’s probably a lot more about, you know, why from written from an evangelical perspective of why I’m not a liberal Christian, or a progressive, why I’m not Eastern Orthodox as opposed to why I am this. So anyway, we’ll get to that, but I I did think it’d be helpful to start with what is an evangelical, so let me try a definition and then Thad see what you think of this. So I think, first of all, get it out of the way. This is This is related to, but different from the term evangelism. So some people confuse the two. Evangelism is the pursuit of spreading the euangelion. So both both are rooted in the Greek word, euangelion, biblical word. It’s going to be translated in your Bibles as gospel, or good news. Euangelion, literally the good news. And so, evangelism is again is is is the the sort of verb tense of of good newsing of of sharing this good news with others. Evangelical is more of the the noun, identity label of a a good newser. So, I would I would, I think that’s a pretty helpful, good way of thinking about what an evangelical is at its most basic, root, etymological. I mean, an evangelical is someone who, number one, believes the gospel. I mean, if you’re going to be a a good newser, you you know, you need to buy into, subscribe to, you know, this idea that there is good news. You know, we we, I guess most succinctly, I usually talk about that the gospel in four kind of parts, that God is supreme, man is sinful, Jesus is Savior, faith is sufficient. So, you know, God, man, Jesus, Christ and and faith. And and so, if you believe these basic, core, kind of doctrines of of what it I would say it means, not just to be evangelical, but to really be Christian, then you you believe the gospel. The Bible says the gospel, Romans 1:16, is the power of God for salvation to to everyone who believes. So you believe that, you’re saved. And then subsequently, you know, it’s it’s very clear that we are saved not by works, but for good works, Ephesians 2:10. One of the goodest of, greatest of works is is good newsing others, is evangelizing others. And so, you know, we would say that if you don’t have this compulsion to follow Christ’s Great Commission that he’s left his his followers, his people with, to go and share this this good news with others, then you must not truly believe it. You know, there’s a you you know, if if you really believe that there’s a heaven, there’s a hell, that most people what we interact with on a daily basis are doomed for hell probably, even in a quote, unquote, Christian country like ours, because, you know, they’re they’re self-identifying as Christian, but do they really know and believe and trust have faith in the the good news? Bless you. So we yeah, we would say evangelicals ought to be people committed to evangelism, but not confusing the two. The So if you if you just type in Google and look up, you know, what is an evangelical, the top things really the yeah the top kind of results you’re going to get are going to refer you to what’s called the Bebbington Quadrilateral,
Thad Yessa 7:30
which I had never heard of.
Will DuVal 7:32
Oh, really? Okay. I I had heard of this.
Thad Yessa 7:34
I I know what those are, I had never heard of it put to that.
Will DuVal 7:36
Those are, yeah. That term, yeah. I think it was David Bebbington was a a religious sociologist, I don’t know, maybe 50 years ago, or something, who kind of distinguished and distilled evangelicalism down into what he called it its four most core doctrines of of all, you know, the the different, I guess, doctrines that we as evangelicals, probably by corollary, subscribe to, there are four that are that he kind of said are kind of the root. I would say you you might be able to get these down to even just, I don’t know, two, three. But, one is conversionism, being born again, the the belief that lives need to be changed through a personal, conscious decision to accept Jesus Christ as Savior. So that’s part of what I was talking about with, you know, believing the gospel. You believe the gospel and you’re born again. Biblicism, so a high regard for the Bible as the ultimate authoritative and reliable Word of God. Crucicentrism, a strong focus on the cross, cruci, the the the sacrifice of Jesus and on the cross, and his resurrection as a central means of human salvation. And then activism, which is that that other evangelism we were talking about, the active expression, sharing, and living out of the gospel message through personal mission and social or community work. So, you know, again, I there are people that have been talking about that. So that’s the statement you’re going to see on, for instance, like the National Association of Evangelicals, the NAE, which is probably, I guess, considered the if there is like a group out there that speaks on behalf of the evangelical church. Now, I think it’s it bears mentioning right off the bat in this conversation that evangelicalism doesn’t refer, name any one specific denomination. It spans a variety of different church traditions, denominations. Not all of them by any means, but a smaller subset of Christendom. Now, again, we we could discuss, and maybe it’s helpful to discuss maybe it’ll come up on my panel tomorrow, whether or not you know, whether or not you have to be evangelical to be Christian. Are non-evangelical Christians still Christian? That’s a different discussion. That’s a part of the discussion I’ll have tomorrow is, what does it mean to be Christian? But as far as what does it mean to be evangelical as a smaller subset of Christians, you’re talking about again, those churches, denominations that are more theologically conservative. So, again, born again. Bible is the ultimate, authoritative Word of God. Gospel, crucicentrism, activism. So conservative Baptist, you know, the Southern Baptist, and and some other types of like Converge that we were a part of before, and and some others.
Thad Yessa 10:46
Some independent Baptist who wouldn’t have any sort of
Will DuVal 10:48
In the pack. Yes, yeah. Yeah, independent, fundamentalist. So, so even more conservative than than that. Pentecostal, Charismatic traditions. I would say a lot, maybe most, all of those would be lumped into this bigger evangelical bucket. Reformed Presbyterians, so so PCA, EPC, depending on where you draw the line with, again, some of your defining your terms of, you know, what it means to say the the Bible is the infallible Word of God kind of stuff.
Thad Yessa 11:21
Christian Reformed Church probably fits in there.
Will DuVal 11:24
CRC, yep. So so those kinds of traditions. Holiness, Anabaptist, I thought that was interesting, actually. I have not historically thought of like, you know, the Mennonites or whatever, as like being I don’t know, that, but that’s they’re listed on the NAE website, so I don’t know. Certainly, I would say the biggest contingency, probably maybe even bigger probably than than Southern Baptist now, oh, I think definitely, would be non-denominational. So most of your non-denominational, if you just, you know, if you’re on a church’s website and what denomination are you ask or whatever, and they’re like, “Oh, we’re non-denominational.” Again, you got to check you got to really kick the tires on that, because they it could be a cult, it could be crazy. But probably, you know, 95 times out of 100 with that, that is just code for, you know, “We’re a Bible-believing church. The Bible is our ultimate authority, but we don’t want to pay 1% of our annual budget to, you know, the EFCA, or the Southern Baptist, or the you know, we don’t want them telling us what to do. We’ll just do it ourselves, why do we need them?” So so so non-denominational churches are would would fall into that. And and then again, I referenced it in the pack, but EFCA, so, I mean, it’s right there in the name for us. Evangelical Free Church of America are a a network that we belong to now. And and we can get into other conversation. I would I would say arguably that actually, if you want to look for kind of fault lines and in dividing lines within the broader sort of camp of evangelicalism nowadays, for the last probably 10 years or so, I would say it may it may be even more telling to look not so much at what denomination churches belong to, but their political engagement. I would I would say that they’re, you know, you you could maybe make the case that, you know, within evangelicalism, you could group it in a number of different ways, you know, like, okay, now within we’re all evangelicals here in this room. Let’s all group off into our denominations. But you could also say, you know, politically, how how do churches engage politically? Not to get on that whole other topic, it’s just something that for the last, I think 10 years now since Trump, and COVID, and everything else, you’ve just had
Thad Yessa 13:57
There’s been a growing divide between those who are
Will DuVal 14:00
Trump evangelicals and non-Trump. I mean, basically, it’s kind of what it boils down to. So, anyway, that that, that’s just another fun fact I guess about it. But do you think that that’s a
Thad Yessa 14:15
Small tidbit, yeah.
Will DuVal 14:16
Yeah, I just think it’s, you know, if you’re trying to get your bearings within, okay, what is? Well, and I mentioned in the intro, too, Angela, with, you know, your slip about pastor. But I mean, that is
Thad Yessa 14:30
Pastor Angela.
Angela Heck 14:31
No!
Will DuVal 14:32
There are that would be another way. There are any number of ways, so we could we could talk about, you know, complementarian evangelicals versus egalitarian. There’s a lot of, again, especially the really big, you know, megachurch kind of evangelical churches out there that that would still claim, you know, Bible is our ultimate authority, but they’re going to read some of those texts that we read about women in scripture differently than us. And and they they do actually ordain women pastors and stuff. So so, yeah, I don’t know. I mean, and there may, I’m sure there are even evangelical church Well, churches that claim to be evangelical that have, you know, will even go so far as to be affirming of LGBTQ lifestyle, and and that sort of a thing. But again, now you’re talking fringe. That that would be very fringe. But then again, once upon a time, egalitarian churches within evangelicalism would be fringe, and now that’s I wouldn’t still call that necessarily the mainstream. I would think that it would still be a minority, but I don’t know for sure. So anyway, what do you like that definition of what an evangelical is? My kind of first two-fold one that I started with, believes the gospel, shares the gospel versus the the quadrilateral, those Bebbington’s four kind of criteria, or would you change any of that?
Thad Yessa 16:10
Yeah, no, I I’d holistically agree with both of those. Again, you’re, hey, here’s the two-fold, evangelicals engage in evangelism. The Bebbington’s quadrilateral I agree with. Interestingly enough, I I don’t think I could I could be wrong, I’d have to think more, but as I was looking, because I as well couldn’t find many who had spoken on like why I’m an evangelical, but as I was looking at different people who weren’t necessarily like big names, but just I’m curious what’s out there, and so I’m going to plunge the depths of people’s blog posts and stuff that that several moved it from four to six to include more specifically, the solas in there to to try and and and move those in, being cross-focused of
Will DuVal 17:15
Only picked two of the solas? Or
Thad Yessa 17:17
Well, to to work them in, so Scripture alone, faith alone, Christ alone, they’re they’re putting that one with the cross is the only way for salvation, so they’re saying, “Hey, that’s that’s Christ alone.” They’re adding grace alone, they’re adding glory to God alone.
Will DuVal 17:36
Okay, and then
Thad Yessa 17:38
And then, with conversionism, that’s where they’re putting sola fide.
Will DuVal 17:42
Okay.
Thad Yessa 17:43
And I’m like, yeah, I feel I feel like I feel like that personally, like I can get there. I don’t think, broadly speaking, in the evangelical world you’re going to get as much agreement on that list. Although I I can understand, and
Will DuVal 17:57
If you add those two.
Thad Yessa 17:58
if you add those even if like personally, like I have no problem with those, but I don’t think all evangelicals are going to agree. I think you’re going to have some more division that’s in there. One thing that came up as I was thinking about this that’s in the quadrilateral and this of the activism, and we we talked about evangelism already, of how many hear activism in general and do not and have a different definition in their mind or meaning behind what activism really
Will DuVal 18:29
Yeah, they don’t associate it with evangelism, they associate it with social justice activism.
Thad Yessa 18:34
Which again is
Will DuVal 18:35
Or political activism.
Thad Yessa 18:36
Or or political, which, even when you think of those who perhaps fall outside the evangelical landscape, that is their definition of what activism is, and so they they might agree on a word, but a a different definition on what it is, or should the church even be engaging in in that kind? So I, all that to say, I agree with you, and I I think it’s important to to just reiterate again that it’s not a denomination. It’s agreed upon set of convictions that, again, loosely tie us, not loosely, that they do tie us together. But even as you named those denominations who are part of them, that it gives us an opportunity to be to say like, even though our church, West Hills, we’re a part of the Evangelical Free Church of America, we should be very friendly with those who we might not agree with on second- and third-tier doctrines, because we are a part of this big evangelical circle, and for those who fall even what we’d say outside the evangelical, we still should be charitable, and gracious, and kind to them. Because I I can picture in my head, you know, we we talked briefly about the debate about like, you know, what what’s the temperature of the room going to be? Are is will there be hostility? And I I don’t think that that shows well for us in a defense for for evangelicals if we enter these things
Will DuVal 20:04
Yeah.
Thad Yessa 20:04
with lack of charitability and are hostile, and not engaging in in good faith.
Will DuVal 20:10
Yeah, I mean I think absolutely, yeah, to to underscore your point. Like this debate tomorrow, if everybody else was just being kind of chummy, and charitable, and I show up as like the the one who’s got to prove that I’m right and
Thad Yessa 20:26
The token angry evangelical.
Will DuVal 20:27
y’all are wrong, yeah, exactly, the Bible thumper, like what, you know, doesn’t matter what I say, or or how supported, you know, my points might be biblically or otherwise, like, that’s that’s not a good Yeah, going to 1 Peter 3:15, being ready to make a defense for the hope that is within you, but do it with gentleness and respect, that you may be well thought of by by outsiders. So you going to have outsiders, you’re going to have these students at St. Louis Community College and others who show up, who want to see not just not just hear the arguments for and against various kind of faith traditions within Christianity, but maybe even more so see how we interact with with one another. But to go back to your point, I I love what you said about activism and I and I or I and I love I love that it is that that Bebbington sort of pulled it out as one of the four distinctives of evangelicals. And, you know, what when I and I really tried to distill it down to to two, which really combines, I think the certainly the crucicentrism and conversionism to say, you know, you you got to you got to be born again by faith in Christ. And then you’ve got to want others to be born again by faith in Christ, and and therefore, you’ve got to be motivated to to get this news out. But just because, you know, that is I think sadly that if you were to ask a lot of folks about their, you know, stereotype of Well, in particular this gets to some of the Protestant versus Catholic debate is, you know, a lot of folks will allege that, you know, Protestants are and that our theology can promote a passivity that, you know, if it’s really by God’s grace alone, God did everything, you know, by faith God even has to give you the faith. It’s like, well, what do we do at all? Can we just kind of sit back on our laurels, and whatever, coast? And again, I think, you know, if nothing else, like, you know, even if we want to say theologically like, no yeah, we don’t contribute anything to our salvation other than our sin. But as far as, you know, so where does the activism, where does the activity come in? We would say it’s well, it’s after salvation, it’s in response to what God has done, his action. We, in response, we get active about about sharing this news with others. So, anyway, anything else on on the kind of defining what it means to be evangelical? I saw this on the NAE site, again National Association of Evangelicals, the NAE/LifeWay research method for surveying and asking about those who self-identify as evangelical includes four statements to which respondents must strongly agree to be characterized as evangelical. This is on just like thousands of people nationwide surveys they do. So four statements that people have to, you know, strongly disagree to strongly agree spectrum. And they have to say, “I strongly agree with all four of these in order to be characterized as evangelical.” Number one, the Bible is the highest authority for what I believe. Number two, it is very important for me personally to encourage non-Christians to trust Jesus Christ as their Savior. Number three, Jesus Christ’s death on the cross is the only sacrifice that could remove the penalty of my sin. Number four, only those who trust in Jesus Christ alone as their Savior receive God’s free gift of eternal salvation. So you’ve got all four of Bebbington’s things there. You’ve got the the scripture as authority, the biblicism, highest authority. You’ve got the activism, important for me to personally encourage others to trust in Christ. You’ve got the crucicentrism, Christ’s death on the cross is the only sacrifice for my sin, and then you’ve got the conversionism, only those who trust in Christ can be saved. So, and again, I think that’s those are all four statements that I would agree with. I know you, you know, y’all y’all would, and that we would say, yeah, I mean of all the of all the questions you could ask me on a survey about core beliefs and what I believe, I mean, those those four, you know, view of Scripture, a view of of mission, and what we’re here on earth to do post-salvation, view of salvation and and how salvation happens, and then view of Jesus, and what he’s done for me. And those I can’t think of four things that are more important. So that again, that’s I guess, you know, what makes me an evangelical. So, I don’t know if we were going to Go ahead.
Thad Yessa 25:32
Well, I yeah, I just I had this thought just as you were talking about it of, you know, well, we’re not we’re not necessarily, explicitly defining those who fall outside of the camp of evangelicalism. But as you were, you know, reading through those, I I can’t help but think of what’s now been branded as exvangelical
Will DuVal 25:56
Mhm.
Thad Yessa 25:57
of of those individuals who would say, “At one point, I was an evangelical, or I was inside an evangelical church, but now I reject the language at least.” And and again, might still agree, I don’t know, that it’s just a passing thought that that came in my head of what to do with those individuals. And and, you know, if I’m if I’m thinking about those who fall on it, it’s often perhaps one of two responses. One, it’s the rejection of the Bible as the highest authority, just in my ex- personal experience with individuals who who have now accepted the changed the label to exvangelical. Or, they experience some some form of abuse in some sort of someone who claimed the the title of evangelical, or a part of a church that said they were evangelical, and yet their outflow of actions was not actually in alignment with proving that the Bible is their ultimate authority, or that activism in pursuing people with Jesus, and and that. And again, that that’s where it gets a little muddied and gray, I think, as we have some of those boundaries. So that’s just a a side comment that just popped in my mind of Yeah. Post-evangelical, ex- exvangelical, you know, those particular
Will DuVal 27:23
You hear those terms thrown around a lot these days on social media, and absolutely.
Angela Heck 27:28
I was also wondering just like what other like mainstream Christian faith would be defined as not evangelical?
Will DuVal 27:39
You’re You’re saying within Christianity?
Angela Heck 27:41
Yes.
Will DuVal 27:42
So, I mean, all the folks that will be on my panel tomorrow, so you’ve got the the Catholics, which and then you’ve got Eastern Orthodox. So if you want to think historically within Christianity, you know, they will make the case that everybody every Christian was either they’ll they’ll The original debate was between the two of them, right? You know, the Great Schism in 1054, a thousand years after after Paul, is the East split from the West and Roman Catholicism. And and then, you know, so you have those two branches, and then 500 years later, Martin Luther, then you got Protestantism, right? So now we got a third branch, and then depending on how you want to define branch versus twigs, you know, but but most of us would say there’s those three basic branches, Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Protestantism. Now within Protestantism, then you know, you’ve got any number of strains. You’ve got Calvin and the Reformed strain. You’ve got Luther and the Lutheran strain. You’ve got, you know, eventually England and all of, you know, Anglicanism, Episcopalianism, all that. Evangelicalism, if if we want to get really, I guess, technical about even that terminology is relatively late to the the scene, the party, in terms of a an an identifiable sort of camp within Christendom. And it’s really, it’s really de- de- at least initially, sort of distinguished by, defined by kind of a reaction against a lot of the way the rest of the Protestant Church was moving during the Enlightenment of the 19th century. So you have the Enlightenment, you have all of, you know, we got to be able to it’s got to be observable, scientifically provable. Modern the rise of modernism and Kant, and everybody all that, and and John Locke, and all. So, you know, that seeps into the church, then you got Darwin, then you got, you know, so all of that comes into the church, and you get the rise of liberal and I’m not using that term pejoratively, I mean, this is what, you know, classical historians and theologians would say, you know, liberal theologians
Thad Yessa 30:30
Machen’s Christianity and Liberalism.
Will DuVal 30:32
like Bultmann, and Barth, and and others who become kind of the thought leaders in the church in the late night mid-, late-19th century of trying to square, okay, well, how do we square evolution with with a literal six-day creation from Genesis 1 and 2? Well, we can’t, you know, and so then, you know, now all of a sudden, the resurrection, Christ’s resurrection is is metaphorical and symbolic. So, you know, and and you have whole denominations like the SBC, the largest sub-branch within Protestantism, the Southern Baptist, the largest contingency of of any Protestant denomination in this country, at least, which was really drifting toward in a progressive direction for most of the 20th century until sort of the conservative
Thad Yessa 31:26
Resurgence.
Will DuVal 31:26
resurgence in the late-20th century. And and so the the Southern Baptist come back. But anyways, I would say, yeah, the evangelicalism developed in almost reaction, in response to a lot of that, again, drift away from the inerrancy, the the the taking the Bible literally as the inspired Word of God, unchanging, you know, we’re not trying to make it square with, you know, certainly at least not to a point where you’re compromising on the on the veracity of scripture. And so, again, ultimate authority. So if if I got to trust my understanding of science and reason versus the Bible, I’m going to trust the Bible. So that’s that’s kind of that’s where we’re at, and so in again, in light of that, to answer your question, Catholics, Episcopalians, Orthodox, most Lutherans. I don’t know if Missouri Synod Lutherans, like conservative Lutherans, I guess I guess still wouldn’t maybe Interestingly, the the Evangelical Lutheran Church, ELCA, is the liberal. They’re definitely not evangelical, even though it’s in their name, whereas the Missouri Synod Lutherans would be more in line with the four kind of distinctives of evangelicalism. So anyway,
Thad Yessa 32:49
United Church of Christ.
Will DuVal 32:50
UCC, UMC, Disciples of Christ, what else?
Thad Yessa 32:55
Well, and then kind of even
Will DuVal 32:57
Episcopal, Anglican.
Thad Yessa 32:59
outside the mainline groups, like which you can include that, again, they might say Christian depending on on what it is, but like you got Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witness.
Will DuVal 33:15
Oh, certainly. Any of the cults. The cults, yeah.
Thad Yessa 33:16
Any of those, yeah, any of those cults. They fall outside of like Trinitarian
Will DuVal 33:22
Yeah.
Thad Yessa 33:22
beliefs. Like those also fit as not within evangelicalism, but they themselves
Will DuVal 33:27
Also not within Christianity, we would say, yeah.
Thad Yessa 33:29
Also, but they, but they would say they are, but we would say, “No, you’re not.”
Will DuVal 33:31
They would say they are, yeah. Right.
Thad Yessa 33:33
I’m just uh if we’re broadening it a little bit.
Will DuVal 33:37
So we could have a again, my my conversation tomorrow on the panel will will talk about whether or not you can be considered Christian, or should be considered Christian, I consider Christian, those who are not evangelicals. That’s another discussion topic. But as for what’s an evangelical, and then the second follow-up question we wanted to talk about was that one that we’re having trouble finding people really kind of reflecting on, which is why am I one? Why am I, why do I consider myself an evangelical? Don’t want to talk about it from the standpoint of, again, the lines have gotten blurred, terms have gotten blurred, especially lately, you know, a lot of misconceptions, evangelical means you vote for Trump, or whatever, politically conservative, all that. That that’s or you hate gays, or hate abortion, or whatev- like, I think So, you know, again, based on our biblical convictions, there there’s a reason for every stereotype, right? Whatever. But stereotypes aside, what’s an evangelical? And why I guess another question maybe worth considering like in light of all the baggage now that that sometimes comes with the word evangelical, some have have suggested we just throw out the label all together. It’s unhelpful, not redeemable, like don’t don’t publicly identify your- Don’t go on a panel and say, “I’ll I’ll be the token evangelical,” because everybody’s immediately going to throw rotten vegetables at you, because, you know, of of the baggage that comes with that. I would say, based on, again, you know, in the same way that I don’t want to go down a language thing about other terms that have been co-opted, and you know, like I’m not going to stop painting rainbows, letting my kids paint rainbows just because the LGBTQ movement tried to steal it, right? That’s ours, that’s Noah’s Ark, so we got the rainbow. I would say same thing, evangelical, you know, no matter how you want to try and drag the term through the mud, or identify it with Trump, or whatever else, if you go just etymologically, what is it, the way we’ve defined it, I think it’s a really helpful, and beautiful label that you know, again of all I mean, on the one hand, I on the one hand, you know, you’ve got folks, Christians, that will say, “Look, I don’t like to identify as a Baptist, or a a Pentecostal, or as a Presbyterian, what like, I’m a Christian. That’s that’s what’s important, I belong to Christ, you know, that’s my.” And I get that, and I’m I’m with you, all right. You know, if if I had to pick, I want to pick Christian as a label for me. However, I’m going to be on a panel tomorrow with five other people who are saying, “Christian, I’m Christian.” You know, yeah, we’re all Christians up here, but there are significant differences between us, so and and I think it can be can be helpful to use a term and to claim, for me to claim a a label like evangelical for myself to say, hey, this is this word means something positive, I think, and and helpful, productive in terms of helping us delineate what makes me different from the other five of y’all in terms of what I believe about the Bible, and reality, and faith. And so anyway, it’s a it’s a label I’m I’m happy to to go, you know, put my name tag on for tomorrow. But why why am I one? Why are you one? Do you want to go first? I’ve got I went first on the definition. Do you want to go first? I’ve got like five things that, for me, I came up with like really sitting, thinking, reflecting, because again, nobody else was helpful online, but why am I one? I’ve got five, but you go first.
Thad Yessa 37:36
Yeah, so in in no particular order. I I’m going to, my first one that I’m, as you were talking, although we could potentially disagree on it, clarity. Like, for me, there’s clarity in being an evangelical,
Will DuVal 37:56
Yeah.
Thad Yessa 37:56
because I ascribe to those four definitions of it, or even those those four questions of it, that there is clarity for me, where there’s a lack of clarity broadly speaking using the term Christian, although I am one, although I can define a Christian. Because even as I just mentioned like Latter-day Saints and Christian Science, like they’re claiming that they’re Christians, and and I would argue, “No, you’re not.” And so, there’s clarity in in claiming to be an evangelical, again, by the definitions we’ve already used, and with the NAE NAE uses. No, did I say that wrong? Whatever, those three letters. So I I would say clarity.
Will DuVal 38:41
I would echo that, and the word, I don’t know if it’s Clear. similar enough, but I I said stability. Maybe you have get to that later in yours, but
Thad Yessa 38:51
I have a different word for stability for something else.
Will DuVal 38:53
Okay. Sorry, I was but I it it made me think of it when you were talking about clarity, that for me, you know, the Bible doesn’t change. That’s, you know, Bible hasn’t changed in 2,000 years. Every other source of authority does. Popes have changed, church councils have changed, society and what’s right and wrong according to, you know, the average person who gets polled on the street, that absolutely changes rapidly these days. So traditions like like UCC, or UMC, or DRC, or others that are trying to square, you know, this whole mantra of God is still speaking, you know, God is is still kind of, you know, the spirit’s still moving and things are open for interpretation and revelation, and what that really means is God God can apparently contradict himself. Like, God said something 2,000 years ago, but apparently, that’s very different than what God is saying now, and so we got to radically reinterpret, or whatever. I would say that there’s just there’s there’s chaos, there’s confusion in that. So to go to your point again about clarity, yeah, I I know where I stand, where we stand, because I I can know where the Bible stands, because it doesn’t change. Stability.
Thad Yessa 40:10
Yeah. I so, I clarity. Confidence is what I had, confidence in the authority of scripture. Well, same thing as you, stability, like it it in my mind clearly defined the stability in scripture as final authority. Why else would I add it? I I would I would say, as we were talking, and as I named earlier, activism as part of it, of meaning like there there is movement that happens as a result of it. I don’t want to be part of something that doesn’t result in actual true, eternal change, meaning going and and share I don’t I wish I had a a quippy quippy word for it, but in in that movement of that, because if I’m going to give a real critique of evangelicalism broadly, I think activism is is what is lacking most
Will DuVal 41:07
Mhm, yeah.
Thad Yessa 41:08
perhaps most of all in in evangelical churches of people actually believing that there is a active responsibility of them to proclaim the life, death, burial, resurrection of Jesus on behalf of their sin. And so like for me though, identifying as an evangelical, that matters deeply,
Will DuVal 41:29
Yeah.
Thad Yessa 41:29
and that’s that’s, again, something I want to be a part of more than I want to be a part of political activism, social activism, I want to be a part of an eternal activism that results in eternal change for someone.
Will DuVal 41:43
Yeah, absolutely. I that’s I’ve got, “Purpose,” is on my list.
Thad Yessa 41:47
There you go, purpose. So there’s the there’s the quippy word I needed.
Will DuVal 41:50
No, it’s like, I mean, we’re all looking for an answer to the question of, why am I here? You know, and we’ve got that. Like, we and and and it’s such a again, we’re we’re caught up in God’s grand, eternal, glorious mission to redeem the world, and and redeem a broken, fallen humanity back to himself, and we get to play a part in that, and and I just think about, I mean, gosh, any of the like greatest movies of all time, like, you know, Saving Private Ryan, or whatever, and you just think
Thad Yessa 42:23
Top Top Gun: Maverick.
Will DuVal 42:24
Yeah, exactly. Top Gun: Maverick, preached on that, or used it as a sermon illustration
Angela Heck 42:29
Preached on it?
Will DuVal 42:30
a few weeks
Thad Yessa 42:30
The Gospel According to Maverick.
Will DuVal 42:32
I did I did a whole exposition on the No, but I use that as a sermon illustr- But I mean, you know, what is it about it that grips us? It’s this it’s this idea that, man, there’s such a deep sense of like purpose in something hard that’s worth doing, and worth giving your life to, and man, you just you can’t read Paul in the New Testament without, I mean, he’s just dripping with purpose. This guy that we just heard a couple weeks ago in Philippians 3, traded all, counted it all, sorry, as rubbish compared to to knowing Christ, and to making him known. You know, that was the plaque that was over the the exit to the sanctuary in the church I grew up in, Evangelical Community Church in Jackson, Tennessee. The plaque was, you know, to know him and make him known. And that’s, again, goes to that those those two hallmarks of evangelicalism, you know, being born again, knowing him, knowing Christ personally, and being saved, and then making him known to others so that they can be saved, too. But I mean, yeah. Anyway, I gives us gives us a reason to be here, we’re not just Anyway, yeah, we’ll we’ll leave it at that. You you said it well.
Thad Yessa 43:54
Yeah. I’d add future future hope or I guess you could also say present hope of, again, what what is it the good news of we’re sharing? One, that we can have relationship with God, and we’ll spend eternity with him forever, and and I’d also even add to that, I am also hopeful for the future of evangelicalism broadly speaking, that I think a a lot of as muddy as it can be, and even as I named the the grayness of the exvangelical, or the post-evangelical, or whatever, like I am still hopeful for, if you want if you want to call it a movement, for those who have collectively ascribed to these distinctives. Like I I am hopeful because I know the message that is being proclaimed is everlasting good news. So I’m hopeful in that, and so that’s also why I’m part of it, well, so why I’m not dropping the name, or the title, or the label of evangelical, because I’m hopeful for what lies ahead.
Will DuVal 44:52
Yeah, I’ve got hope as the last one on my list, too. I’m I’m in it for the hope, amongst other things, because I mean, I I would say first of all that’s that’s a huge part of why I’m a Christian, because, you know, I tried to live as as an atheist, and like as the the common quip goes, you know, I I didn’t have the faith to be an atheist from an intellectual standpoint of, you know, there being just so much evidence to the contrary in creation, and and and God of the design argument and all that. But not just I didn’t have the faith to be an atheist, I didn’t have the hope, you know, to be and and I I I don’t see how you get I mean, I don’t I don’t see how I keep getting up day after day after day, putting one foot in front of the next, and and trudging through a broken world that we live in without some kind of assurance that there’s more after this. Now, if I want to go even more narrow though, within now now that part of it, you know, that makes me a a that gets me into Christianity, the hope, well, why wouldn’t you just be, you know, like the UCC guy on the panel tomorrow, because he gets even more hope, right? Because everybody he he’s going to believe in universalism, everybody gets saved. God works it out for everybody in the end. I would say, man, not that there not that there can be too much hope, but like that there’s also, let me put it this way, within evangelicalism and within scripture, if you just want to like stay true to scripture, there is the hope of justice. There is the hope of God’s mercy and grace, which we need and is greater, but you also don’t have to sacrifice the hope of justice that I I really do hope, and and the Bible depicts it that way in the book of Revelation, right? I mean, it’s not like you know everybody who who who who asked that question of like, gosh, you read it, and you know, blood flowing through the through the streets up to a horse’s bridle, and whatever like, you know, and and it’s just it’s appalling, and horrific, and who would want that? And you know, of course, the answer, I think it was R.C. Sproul who said like, if you belong to God, on that day, you will be rejoicing, because God’s people should have a a zealous passion for his glory in the same way, to the same, you know, extent that that God himself does. And we should hate it when people mock and scoff, and and thumb their nose at God. And so anyway, there’s still that hope of I don’t I don’t find the the idea of hell Who was it I was listening to just the other day who said, you ask you you do this Christianity thing long enough, you like, you’re going to you got to eventually answer the question, you know, do I do I hate What was it? Oh, I’m going to have to look it up now. It was Mike Winger. It was on his podcast, but he said like, do I hate hell, or do I hate God, or something like that? But it was hate hate, you know, God’s God’s glory, because you know again, we ought to be so passionate and love God and his glory that that we we we look forward to the day when God will avenge and and get justice on his enemies. But we don’t, I say that, but you know, we also don’t desire that anybody would would end up an enemy. That that we want to see people who are enemies today become brothers and sisters tomorrow, and and so goes back to that the purpose and the evangelism question. All right, so hope, what else you got?
Thad Yessa 49:04
My My last one is examples, meaning those who I have seen in the evangelical space, and those who And I use examples because good and bad, those who are not in the evangelical space, and and I look at their lives. I I, at one time, heard Tom Schreiner, he went to a a liberal seminary, and someone asked how how he was able to to navigate it and get through and in in that, and came out on the side of of not being theologically liberal and all of that, and he’s like, “Really, I looked at their lives,
Will DuVal 49:40
Mhm.
Thad Yessa 49:40
and and I looked at
Will DuVal 49:42
The fruit.
Thad Yessa 49:42
the fruit of of it.” And and for me, like, I again, I’m trying to speak charitably, those who I have had personal interactions and relationships with that I look at their lives, and what I see the fruit born out of those in evangelicals is a fruit that I desire for for my own life, for my own family, for my own children, versus, again, those who I’ve had personally, and I look at the fruit of others, and I’m like, that’s not what I want for my life. That’s not what I want for my children. That’s not what I want for for others broadly speaking. And so I I think I’d add that one to it, examples.
Will DuVal 50:19
Absolutely, I’ve got that on mine too. And I would say sadly, though, so many who are now exvangelicals, and and others who reject evangelical Christianity, would say just the opposite, and say that, you know, I they’ve they’ve encountered more of the stereotype, the Bible thumper, you know, person who’s who’s, again, known more for what they’re against, and what they they hate, and who they oppose, than than for, again, being for the gospel, and being for evangelism, and and seeing others come to know Christ through the gospel, which is which is sad. But I I absolutely, I had the same thing on my list. Examples, you know, that have that that that have been set for me, and yeah, just that I see in the lives of others around me that when I was frankly, yeah, miserable, trying to live far from God, and I just you know, you see the fruit, and and I in my own life and and in those around me, and seeing, you know, who are the people that seem to be the happiest? Well, those who are trusting God and trying to live within, you know, his will for their life, and maybe I should give that a shot. And I and I would say related to that, too, I would be dishonest, personally, disingenuous if I didn’t acknowledge that, you know, my own upbringing certainly, I think played a role. Like, if I had been raised in the UCC Church, or if I had been raised in the Episcopal Church, or if I had been raised in, fill in the blank, Catholic, or or, you know, much less Muslim, or whatever else, would I be an evangelical today? Impossible to say, right? It’s impossible to say. But you know, I’m not going to sit here and pretend like my being raised in an evangelical house, and church, and all of that, didn’t play a factor in my coming full circle back to evangelicalism. So so I I can acknowledge that. My last two that and one of them, I think one of them at least you definitely touched on with your confidence, I think, point. And I just I I titled it as, “Truth.” That you know, that that was where I started with, you know, why I’m an evangelical. Like, I’d like to think that that it makes the the best sense of the the truth that we see around us in the world, the truth of why humans seem to be all sinful and fallen, and yet why there is still goodness and beauty in the world, and and why there’s a reason to be hopeful, you know, it makes the best sense of the Bible, I think, certainly. I think, you know, the way these other Christian traditions are interpreting the Bible, you know, there’s just so much in let’s pick on Roman Catholicism, that you know, the Saints, and Mary, and Eucharist, and and and rosaries, and and everything else that’s just Purgatory, that’s not there. It’s just not in the Bible. And the like half a phrase that they will build a whole doctrine out of is is again, to paint with a broad is is yeah it’s I think evangelicalism makes makes the best sense of of the Bible. And to me, you know, with any of these others, again, the progressive Christians traditions especially, it just never made sense to me. Like, when I was going through my own deconstruction phase during divinity school in in particular, and surrounded by nothing but progressive, quote, unquote, Christians, and and again, I I don’t mean to say that mockingly, I mean, I think some of my now, you know, former classmates, colleagues, and and still in some cases friends, are are Christian, and and I hope and pray to, you know, see them in heaven, even if they disagree with me on LGBTQ and whatever else. But, I think it just never made sense to me. Like, I kind of tried like that that like halfway out of out of evangelicalism like, well, maybe I can’t still trust the whole Bible, but like I’ll just pick and choose the parts that I like, and then I’ll just adapt the other parts to what society tells me, or what my heart tells me about what feels right to believe. And it’s like, at a certain point in time, it’s just like, well, now, who’s What’s the real source of authority? It’s me. And at that point, why wouldn’t I just rewrite the whole thing? Like, why do I even need any of it? Like, I’ll just rewrite the Bible and make it better, and and just have a religion of me. And anyway, it just they all of it to say, like either the Bible, I just got to the point where I realized like, either the Bible is God’s Word, and we got to take it that way, all of it, you know, and not just the parts we like, or if it’s not, there’s enough there that makes it worth throwing in the garbage, to be honest. I mean, I and I can say that as someone who loves the Bible. Like, there’s enough in the Bible that if it’s not God’s Word, don’t read it, cuz you can write a better book. But if it’s God’s Word, then then you cannot improve on it, and you don’t change it, and you read, and even when you don’t like it, you better figure out how to interpret it, because it’s God’s Word. So that’s that is that’s the bottom line for me why I’m an evangelical. I I take the Bible to be God’s Word, and and and it’s true, and it’s either of supreme importance, or it’s of no importance, frankly. Every other source of authority, church tradition, my my reason, my my own intellectual making sense of, societal progress, all the rest of it is demonstrably false and fallible. Like every every other, you know, I can prove that, you know, Popes have gotten it wrong in the past. I can I can tell you just this morning how my reason led me astray, and you know, me me presuming to be the source of authority in my own life, in my own parenting, or my own marriage, like leads me astray all the time. So again, the the Bible is the only source of authority that that is at least debatably infallible. Like at least debatably, I can make a case for, and I’m going to tomorrow as in the token evangelical, for why the Bible is infallible, for why, you know, the rest of y’all like, “Yeah, give me some Bible, but also this, too.” And me and for me to stand up and say, “No, the Bible is is it. It’s the ultimate source of authority, and it’s it’s inerrant. It doesn’t It’s not wrong anywhere. It doesn’t need you to improve on it.” And so, yeah, and I think there are good reasons for believing the Bible to be God’s Word, for the record. Like historical reasons, you know, the you know, textual evidence, manuscripts, all that. Again, so it’s not like I just believe that on faith like because I want it to be true, although I will also acknowledge I want it to be true. You know, like, I I think the Bible is the best story ever written. It’s a It’s a, you know, story. It’s not a list of do’s and donts, it’s a story, the grand story of God’s redemptive plan for the world, and I think it’s the greatest story. Every other story is just a a a inferior kind of rip-off of the Bible, the gospel story as as recorded for us in in God’s Word. And so, it’s it’s an amazing, and I want it to be true. And and so I’m subjective, but then I again, I would say those who come to the Bible wanting it not to be true are also subjective. You know, they’re they’re looking for reasons not to believe it and take it as God’s Word. The last one that I had that I don’t think we’ve talked about yet of why I I am an evangelical is I would say it’s fun. I would say that I love making sense of the Bible, and other Christians from other non-evangelical traditions don’t really have to do that, because when they come across a passage that confronts their modern sensibilities, they just, you know, take their take their X-Acto knife and cut it out of the Bible. “Well, this was Paul and you know, he was a first century, pre-modern, you know, person who thought that women should wear head coverings and and stay silent in church. But, you know, now we know better and we’ll never read that in this church.” And they they they just do whatever they do to it if they don’t like it. For us, we’re like, well, I’m looking out and not a lot of young women got head coverings on, so what are we going to do with 1 Corinthians 11? Here we go, let’s let’s talk about it. And so I’ve, but I find that fun. It’s like a it’s like a, maybe this sounds crass to say, but it’s like a puzzle. It’s like a riddle, and I love puzzles and riddles, and I get to get up every Sunday and solve a a puzzle, a riddle, and and figure out how does this relate to everything else in the Bible, or at least the relevant stuff? How do I make the case for why you should believe this, and for why not just we we can believe it, and shouldn’t throw it out, but why it’s actually good? Why, you know, it’s actually good that this is in the Bible, and this is God’s Word. So yeah, I think it’s I think it’s fun. And and related to it, I would say I came to really discover, and and believe, and and cherish that, related to the fun part, that it’s that you really got to be smart. I mean, you either got to be really smart or you got to be or you don’t have to be smart at all, if that, you know, you can either just kind of audible down to the like, “Well, God said it, so I believe it, and I don’t need to understand it, and you know, that shuts shut down the debate, and who are you to ask God questions?” or whatever. Or you can say, “Okay, yeah, how how do we square what Jesus says here about about loving your enemies, and praying for those who persecute you with what Leviticus says about an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth?” You know, and and or or or any number of other examples in Scripture that either seem to be contradictory, that those of us who, again, believe the Bible is God’s Word, and highest authority, and doesn’t contradict itself, and you sola scriptura, you got to use Scripture to interpret Scripture, like, okay, now you you better ready be ready to put your money where your mouth is. And and so there’s a whole rich tradition that has developed of of helping us understand and explain these difficult things from God’s Word, and and acknowledging all the while that we’re still humble creatures that will never fully understand all of it, and that there are going to be mysteries in Scripture that will always go over our heads, but but we do our best, you know, to to, you know, faith seeking understanding. We seek to to understand, so. Yeah, that’s that’s what I got. That’s why, and and and thanks Thad for, yeah, fun to go back and forth, piggyback a little on that, but.
Thad Yessa 1:02:04
Yeah, I’m going to add fun, because this was fun. I enjoy conversing with fellow evangelicals.
Will DuVal 1:02:06
It was fun, yeah. Yeah.
Well, and now we’re going to throw this out there, and so hopefully maybe somebody else looking for, why should I be an evangelical, maybe they’ll stumble upon this, and it’ll be helpful to somebody else. So.
Angela Heck 1:02:20
Okay, thank you all for joining us this week on Ask the Pastors. You can submit your questions online at westhillsstl.org under the Resources tab or on Sunday mornings in your get connected cards. We’re back to our regularly scheduled different questions every week, so submit your questions of what you’re wanting to hear our pastors talk about. If you enjoyed this episode, you can subscribe, share it with a friend, and we will see you next week.